The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

[Tercon]

Not you. So you agree with me that NOT ALL belief is necessary.

Strawman and projection. If I don't believe in leprechauns, then that's not a belief but a unbelief. And if I believe in God, then that's a belief in reality. So, you are doing nothing but project your own unbelief by conflating unbelief and belief.

No you haven't. Mere assertions are not logical connections.

No it isn't just "assertions" and "not logical connections".
It is in fact the logical truth, because if the truth and reality absolutely exists and can ONLY be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind, then I have made an absolute logical connection between the logical truth and reality and a believing mind. And because the truth and reality cannot be known to occur in any other way or place but ONLY a believing mind and you have never been able to show otherwise, then the Reader can be quite confident in a absolute logical connection between the logical truth and reality and a believing mind.

Asked and answered. Please try harder to follow what's being said to you.

Evasion.
Do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement: 'Belief is necessary to make the truth and reality known to exist and occur'? It means that your opinion as to belief's necessity and sufficiency is irrelevant, because belief must occur in reality before the truth and reality is made known to you. All you are doing is projecting your unbelief and conflating belief and unbelief in order to keep the truth and reality hidden from yourself.

 

[Tercon]

But all of God's children don't agree with you that reality is located in God's mind.

If someone disbelieves in the ONLY way that the truth and reality of God can be known and they reject His ordained method by which He is known by, then they are not "God's children" and they are unknown to God and God is unknown to them.

Here is hundreds of Bible verses attesting to the ONLY God ordained mode by which He and His Coming Kingdom can be known by.

 

[Whatsisface]

If someone disbelieves in the ONLY way that the truth and reality of God can be known and they reject His ordained method by which He is known by, then they are not "God's children" and they are unknown to God and God is unknown to them.

Here is hundreds of Bible verses attesting to the ONLY God ordained mode by which He and His Coming Kingdom can be known by.

That has nothing to do with the fact that no one agrees with you that reality is located in God's mind. Stop dodging.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Strawman and projection. If I don't believe in leprechauns, then that's not a belief but a unbelief. And if I believe in God, then that's a belief in reality. So, you are doing nothing but project your own unbelief by conflating unbelief and belief.

Is belief in leprechauns necessary or not necessary? Whichever I say, you complain that I'm strawmanning, so you are contradicting yourself. Either it is or it isn't. Please make up your mind.

No it isn't just "assertions" and "not logical connections". It is in fact the logical truth...

Completely unsupported. You are just conflating existence and knowledge again.

Evasion.

Nonsense. Your question was already answered, and I linked you to that answer.

 

[Tiburon]

No you can't. That's why belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you.



Do you know what 'necessary' means in the statement; 'belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known'? It means that belief must occur in reality before the truth and reality is made known to you, because without belief the truth and reality is unknowable to you. Do you understand that?



Just what are you believing to exist in reality and not knowing or experiencing "it in reality"?



Just what are you believing to exist in reality and never experiencing "it in reality".



What are you experiencing in reality "and still disbelieving you are experiencing it silly?



To know something in reality is to believe it in reality, because without a belief in reality there is NO knowing the truth or reality.

I'm not talking about knowing I'm talking about experiencing.
Flour and eggs are necessary to make a cake. That doesn't tell you which order they have to be added.
To know reality you have to experience it and then believe that experience.
I believe there is life on other planets in the universe. I have yet to experience it.
I once experienced seeing a dog lying at the foot of my bed. I didn't believe it because we didn't have a dog.
So is knowing the same as believing?

 

[Tercon]

I'm not talking about knowing I'm talking about experiencing.
Flour and eggs are necessary to make a cake. That doesn't tell you which order they have to be added.

Are you being serious here? Because if "Flour and eggs are necessary to make a cake", then you have to have "Flour and eggs" before you can "make a cake". How come you can't see that?

So the statement "Flour and eggs are necessary to make a cake" definitely does tell us that "the flour and eggs" come before the cake.

To know reality you have to experience it and then believe that experience.

Circular and begging the question. As if belief is necessary before the truth and reality is known or experienced by us, then belief definitely comes before knowing what you are experiencing.

I believe there is life on other planets in the universe. I have yet to experience it.

When you say "life", do you mean humanoids or other conscious beings like us or do you mean like biological life like germs or insects?

I once experienced seeing a dog lying at the foot of my bed. I didn't believe it because we didn't have a dog.
So is knowing the same as believing?

No hallucinating isn't the same as knowing the truth or believing it, that's why belief is necessary for knowledge of the truth and reality.

 

[Tiburon]

Are you being serious here? Because if "Flour and eggs are necessary to make a cake", then you have to have "Flour and eggs" before you can "make a cake". How come you can't see that?

So the statement "Flour and eggs are necessary to make a cake" definitely does tell us that "the flour and eggs" come before the cake.



Circular and begging the question. As if belief is necessary before the truth and reality is known or experienced by us, then belief definitely comes before knowing what you are experiencing.



When you say "life", do you mean humanoids or other conscious beings like us or do you mean like biological life like germs or insects?



No hallucinating isn't the same as knowing the truth or believing it, that's why belief is necessary for knowledge of the truth and reality.

Try reading what I wrote.

Belief is necessary for knowing. But it is not necessary to believe something before experiencing. You can experience and then believe that experience.

It doesn't matter what kind of "life". I have yet to experience either.

"No hallucinating isn't the same as knowing the truth or believing it" And that wasn't the question.

The question was whether I had experienced something that I didn't believe.

I have.

 

[Tercon]

Try reading what I wrote.

Try reasoning and BELIEVING for comprehension.

Belief is necessary for knowing. But it is not necessary to believe something before experiencing. You can experience and then believe that experience.

Strawman. We are talking past one another here. Belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone. So, if when you say "experiencing" or "experience" you aren't referring to belief or believing something about what we are "experiencing" with our physical senses, then you aren't denoting the truth or reality, because belief is what is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us and not our physical sense. I can sit and close my eyes in a dark room and still know and experience the truth and reality without any external stimulus whatsoever. Belief gives us that power.

It doesn't matter what kind of "life". I have yet to experience either.

Me neither and that's why I don't believe aliens exist.

"No hallucinating isn't the same as knowing the truth or believing it" And that wasn't the question.

The question was whether I had experienced something that I didn't believe.

I have.

Again. We are talking past one another. What I am referring to and denoting in and with my posts is how and why the truth and reality are known to us and you aren't. So we aren't referring and denoting to the same thing at all are we.

And the Bible explicitly shows us exactly how and why the truth and reality is known to us.

 

[Whateverman]

This thread's author lacks belief in belief's capability to make falsehoods mistakenly know to him as truths.

 

[Tercon]

This thread's author lacks belief in belief's capability to make falsehoods mistakenly know to him as truths.

Strawman and projection. Actually I have "belief in belief's capability to make" the truth and reality known to me, because if you don't, then YOU lack "belief in belief's capability to make" the truth and reality known to you.

 

[Whateverman]

Strawman and projection.

It's accurate and you're wrong.

You lack belief in belief's capability to make falsehoods mistakenly know to you as truths.

 

[Tiburon]

Try reasoning and BELIEVING for comprehension.



Strawman. We are talking past one another here. Belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone. So, if when you say "experiencing" or "experience" you aren't referring to belief or believing something about what we are "experiencing" with our physical senses, then you aren't denoting the truth or reality, because belief is what is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to us and not our physical sense. I can sit and close my eyes in a dark room and still know and experience the truth and reality without any external stimulus whatsoever. Belief gives us that power.



Me neither and that's why I don't believe aliens exist.



Again. We are talking past one another. What I am referring to and denoting in and with my posts is how and why the truth and reality are known to us and you aren't. So we aren't referring and denoting to the same thing at all are we.

And the Bible explicitly shows us exactly how and why the truth and reality is known to us.

You keep saying that belief must come first before the truth is known to us. But in reality experience must come first. You have been consistently denying this.
When you sit with your eyes closed what truth and reality are you experiencing?
Any truth and reality you are experiencing would be based on previous sensory input.
If you had never been exposed to the physical world what would your mind have to work on?

Where does the Bible show us 'explicitly' how and why the truth is known to us?
Can you explain it in a single paragraph without using the word belief?

 

[Tercon]

It's accurate and you're wrong.

You lack belief in belief's capability to make falsehoods mistakenly know to you as truths.

You're willfully being dishonest now.

As a believer I believe belief has the capacity to make the truth and reality known to me. That's why believers are called believers, we believe belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to us.
But if one doesn't believe that, then that one lacks belief and is a unbeliever in belief's capability to make the truth and reality known to them. And that's exactly what you're doing as a unbeliever (atheist). Understand?

 

[Tercon]

You keep saying that belief must come first before the truth is known to us. But in reality experience must come first. You have been consistently denying this.

If I am the one "saying that belief must come first before the truth is known to us" and you can't know or "experience" the truth or reality without belief, then how do you know what you are experiencing is true or reality without believing first believing that you are experiencing something in the first place?

When you sit with your eyes closed what truth and reality are you experiencing?

I can experience all the truth and reality I presently know, that's the power of a believing mind. A believing mind isn't limited to the past, because a believing mind is always conscious of what it believes from the past in the present too. I can even reason as to how future truth and reality will occur and look based on what I believe in the present.

Any truth and reality you are experiencing would be based on previous sensory input.
If you had never been exposed to the physical world what would your mind have to work on?

Our physical senses or "sensory input" as you put it is meaningless without a believing mind in order to give it meaning. You are wrongly attributing to our physical senses or "sensory input" what it isn't capable of to begin with. "Sensory input" is meaningless without a believing mind in order to make it known to us, because it is what we believe about what we are experiencing that informs us as to the truth and reality and not "sensory input". I guess when you think you are just another animal after awhile you start thinking like one too. Animals run on "sensory input", but conscious human being run on a believing mind. Beings conscious of the truth and reality know how and why the truth and reality is known to them. However, the unconscious unbelieving carnal brain or animal brain is unaware of such things, because they have rejected the very means by which the truth and reality is known and experienced.

Where does the Bible show us 'explicitly' how and why the truth is known to us?

Read for yourself, the entire NT of the Bible is devoted how and why the truth and reality is ONLY knowable to people who believe it or "believers".

Can you explain it in a single paragraph without using the word belief?

Why would I have to do that and what would that prove?

How would or could anyone explain anything about the truth and reality without mentioning what that thing is and how and why it is known to us? The Bible explains in detail how and why the truth and reality is known to us.

 

[Tiburon]

If I am the one "saying that belief must come first before the truth is known to us" and you can't know or "experience" the truth or reality without belief, then how do you know what you are experiencing is true or reality without believing first believing that you are experiencing something in the first place?

Belief is based upon an evaluation of experience.

I can experience all the truth and reality I presently know, that's the power of a believing mind. A believing mind isn't limited to the past, because a believing mind is always conscious of what it believes from the past in the present too. I can even reason as to how future truth and reality will occur and look based on what I believe in the present.

A believing mind is limited to the past. Believing is an evaluation process. We can only evaluate what we have already experienced.

Our physical senses or "sensory input" as you put it is meaningless without a believing mind in order to give it meaning. You are wrongly attributing to our physical senses or "sensory input" what it isn't capable of to begin with. "Sensory input" is meaningless without a believing mind in order to make it known to us, because it is what we believe about what we are experiencing that informs us as to the truth and reality and not "sensory input". I guess when you think you are just another animal after awhile you start thinking like one too. Animals run on "sensory input", but conscious human being run on a believing mind. Beings conscious of the truth and reality know how and why the truth and reality is known to them. However, the unconscious unbelieving carnal brain or animal brain is unaware of such things, because they have rejected the very means by which the truth and reality is known and experienced.

"Sensory input" is meaningless in so far as it is only what it is. Raw perception. We haven't added meaning to it. It provides the basis for the "reality" constructed by our minds.
Human beings run on both "sensory input" processed unconsciously and a conscious evaluation of that input. If you want to call that a "believing mind", fine.

Read for yourself, the entire NT of the Bible is devoted how and why the truth and reality is ONLY knowable to people who believe it or "believers".

No it isn't. It simply tells you to believe. Truth and reality are knowable to anyone with the mental capacity to evaluate "Sensory input" and the ideas extrapolated from it.

Why would I have to do that and what would that prove?
How would or could anyone explain anything about the truth and reality without mentioning what that thing is and how and why it is known to us? The Bible explains in detail how and why the truth and reality is known to us.

You don't have to but I can read the NT and come to a totally different "Truth" than you.
That's why I would find it more useful for you to explain your understanding of the NT message.

 

[Tercon]

Belief is based upon an evaluation of experience.

You mean believing what you are experiencing, because you can't experience anything without believing you are experiencing it in the first place.

A believing mind is limited to the past. Believing is an evaluation process. We can only evaluate what we have already experienced.

No it isn't, as if believing minds can experience the past by remembering what they believe at present, then believing minds are NOT limited to the past or future. A matter of fact a believing mind can even remember the past in the present and get reliable insight into the future from what they believe about the past in the present.
A believing mind eliminates any limitation time may have on a unbelieving mind, as a believing mind is always conscious of the present. And for good reason, because reality like a believing mind can only be known and experience in the present as well.

"Sensory input" is meaningless in so far as it is only what it is. Raw perception. We haven't added meaning to it. It provides the basis for the "reality" constructed by our minds.
Human beings run on both "sensory input" processed unconsciously and a conscious evaluation of that input. If you want to call that a "believing mind", fine.

Thank you.

No it isn't. It simply tells you to believe. Truth and reality are knowable to anyone with the mental capacity to evaluate "Sensory input" and the ideas extrapolated from it.

Yes and that's exactly how and why the truth and reality is known to us. And you have already reluctantly agreed with this above.

You don't have to but I can read the NT and come to a totally different "Truth" than you.
That's why I would find it more useful for you to explain your understanding of the NT message.

No you wouldn't, you are just looking for more reasons to disbelieve. Your atheism is just unbelief and requires consistent reinforcement to sustain. It's not like a belief, a belief has an object to sustain it, unbelief has no object of belief.

It is better for me to tell you about what the truth and reality requires from you in order for you to become a participant.

Does the truth matter to you?

Well if the truth matters to you, and it is true that the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then where is the only place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur?

 

[Tiburon]

You mean believing what you are experiencing, because you can't experience anything without believing you are experiencing it in the first place.



No it isn't, as if believing minds can experience the past by remembering what they believe at present, then believing minds are NOT limited to the past or future. A matter of fact a believing mind can even remember the past in the present and get reliable insight into the future from what they believe about the past in the present.
A believing mind eliminates any limitation time may have on a unbelieving mind, as a believing mind is always conscious of the present. And for good reason, because reality like a believing mind can only be known and experience in the present as well.



Thank you.



Yes and that's exactly how and why the truth and reality is known to us. And you have already reluctantly agreed with this above.




No you wouldn't, you are just looking for more reasons to disbelieve. Your atheism is just unbelief and requires consistent reinforcement to sustain. It's not like a belief, a belief has an object to sustain it, unbelief has no object of belief.

It is better for me to tell you about what the truth and reality requires from you in order for you to become a participant.

Does the truth matter to you?

Well if the truth matters to you, and it is true that the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then where is the only place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur?

Experience comes first, then belief.

You can't experience the past.
You can't experience the future.
You can only experience the now.
Your belief though is an evaluation of that experience and so is always slightly behind the actual sensory input.

If a believing mind is necessary to know Truth and Reality then everyone has a believing mind.
I haven't reluctantly agreed. It was never in contention.

I don't need reasons to disbelieve. I need a reason to believe. Do you accept everything until you are given a reason to disbelieve?
My atheism is just lack of belief. It doesn't need constant reinforcement. I'm not struggling to hold back a barrage of evidence for God in order to maintain my Atheism.

You say "the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind." But to be known they have to be shown to be believable and shown to be true.

 

[Tercon]

duplicate

 

[Tercon]

Experience comes first, then belief.

How do you know anything about what you're experiencing if you don't believe what you are experiencing first silly?

You can't experience the past.

But I did silly.

You can't experience the future.

I know and experience the future based on my present beliefs.

You can only experience the now.

We know and experience God's truth and reality like consciousness; in the now.

Your belief though is an evaluation of that experience and so is always slightly behind the actual sensory input.

We can't know or experience the truth and reality without what a believing mind provides, because it is belief that causes consciousness and not our physical senses.

If a believing mind is necessary to know Truth and Reality then everyone has a believing mind.
I haven't reluctantly agreed. It was never in contention.

If you disbelieve belief has the capacity to make the truth and reality known to you, then you don't have a believing mind. But you have a skeptical unbelieving mind instead.

I don't need reasons to disbelieve. I need a reason to believe.

If belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then that all the reason you need silly.

Do you accept everything until you are given a reason to disbelieve?

I look for reason to believe, because reality demands that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to me.

My atheism is just lack of belief. It doesn't need constant reinforcement. I'm not struggling to hold back a barrage of evidence for God in order to maintain my Atheism.

If in reality belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then all evidence of the truth and reality is belief based.

You say "the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind." But to be known they have to be shown to be believable and shown to be true.

No actually. If belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then you have to believe before the truth and reality is known to you.

 

[Tiburon]

How do you know anything about what you're experiencing if you don't believe what you are experiencing first silly?

You apply belief and knowing after the experiencing. It is almost instantaneous but still after.

But I did silly.

Yes you did. But you are not experiencing the past now are you? All you can do now is experience your memory the past.

I know and experience the future based on my present beliefs.

No you are only experiencing your expectation of the future based on past experience.

We know and experience God's truth and reality like consciousness; in the now.

How? What is the quality of that experience?

We can't know or experience the truth and reality without what a believing mind provides, because it is belief that causes consciousness and not our physical senses.

So your perception is coloured by your beliefs. That's not truth that is bias. You are seeing God because you are wearing God coloured glasses.

If you disbelieve belief has the capacity to make the truth and reality known to you, then you don't have a believing mind. But you have a skeptical unbelieving mind instead.

You are talking about a particular belief. Not belief in general.

If belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then that all the reason you need silly.

No it isn't. Again you are conflating necessary and sufficient.

I look for reason to believe, because reality demands that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to me.

What is this truth and reality?

If in reality belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then all evidence of the truth and reality is belief based.

No it is not belief based it s evidence based. I can believe or disbelieve the evidence but the evidence has to be there first.

No actually. If belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you, then you have to believe before the truth and reality is known to you.

I have to be presented with something to believe and a reason to believe it. You cannot base belief on nothing.