The logical truth and reality of God's believing mind.

Tercon

Well-known member
Because that's what I've experienced. There's no belief about the stove being hot or otherwise dangerous.

So you don't believe that stoves can be hot even when they have been turned off? New models have a red warning light on them warning you that though the stove is turned off; it is still hot enough to burn you.

For a split second, you know it's hot before you believe its hot.

Sense perception precedes can precede belief. {edit by me, obviously}

How do you know what you are perceiving, before you believe you are perceiving it?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No, I'm saying a conclusion is believed without being assumed.

If conclusions are believed to be true, then this belief entails and requires the assumption of its truthfulness as well.

"Assumption; noun
  • [countable] a belief or feeling that something is true or that something will happen, although there is no proof
  • an underlying/implicit assumption
  • We need to challenge some of the basic assumptions of Western philosophy.
  • We are working on the assumption that everyone invited will turn up.
  • It was impossible to make assumptions about people's reactions.
  • His actions were based on a false assumption.
  • She arrived at college with a whole set of assumptions inherited from her family."
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
If conclusions are believed to be true, then this belief entails and requires the assumption of its truthfulness as well.
No it doesn't. If something is concluded, then by definition it is not just assumed. A conclusion is inferred from and supported by premises, whereas an assumption is not.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No it doesn't. If something is concluded, then by definition it is not just assumed. A conclusion is inferred from and supported by premises, whereas an assumption is not.

If a conclusion is a belief or believed to be true, then is a belief "inferred from and supported" as well?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Depends upon how the belief is inferred.

How can it be concluded or inferred without believing it is?

The point here though is that a conclusion is not an assumption.

You have not made a point yet.

Well according to dictionaries, assumption and belief are the same thing, they both are defined as things that are accepted as true without proof.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
How can it be concluded or inferred without believing it is?
I didn't say it's not believed. A conclusion is believed but not assumed.

Well according to dictionaries, assumption and belief are the same thing...
No, they are not. A belief is anything that is accepted as true. An assumption is believed, but not inferred from anything else. A conclusion is inferred from supporting premises.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I didn't say it's not believed. A conclusion is believed but not assumed.

Belief logically entails the assumption of truth.

No, they are not. A belief is anything that is accepted as true. An assumption is believed, but not inferred from anything else. A conclusion is inferred from supporting premises.

Thanks.

You seem to be suggesting that that you don't believe "A conclusion is inferred from supporting premises", because conclusions inferred from supporting premises are believed as well to be related. Are you suggesting that you don't believe anything drawn from "observations"?

"An assumption is something we usually take for granted or presuppose while inference is a conclusion you draw depending on your observations. The main difference between assumption and inference is that we make assumptions without any evidence or facts, while we make assumptions based on facts and evidence."
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Belief logically entails the assumption of truth.
No, it doesn't. A belief may be either assumed to be true or concluded to be true. A conclusion inferred from supporting premises is NOT merely an assumption. Conclusions are not assumptions.

You're welcome.

You seem to be suggesting that that you don't believe "A conclusion is inferred from supporting premises", because conclusions inferred from supporting premises are believed as well to be related. Are you suggesting that you don't believe anything drawn from "observations"?
I am not suggesting that I don't believe what I said. Of course I believe my own conclusions drawn from observations. My point is that beliefs are not mere assumptions when they are instead conclusions inferred from supporting premises.

I will look forward to your timely response around May 2023.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No, they are not. A belief is anything that is accepted as true. An assumption is believed, but not inferred from anything else. A conclusion is inferred from supporting premises.

I am not suggesting that I don't believe what I said. Of course I believe my own conclusions drawn from observations. My point is that beliefs are not mere assumptions when they are instead conclusions inferred from supporting premises.

I will look forward to your timely response around May 2023.

So, if your "belief is anything that is accepted as true" and all assumptions are "believed" to be true, and your conclusion is inferred from your "supporting premises", then your conclusion must be inferred and formed from what you believe to be true right?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I disagree. If you walk into a room and accidentally touch a hot stove top without knowing it's hot, you know it's dangerous/hot before you believe it.

Most knowledge is indeed belief-based, but some is based on brute sense perception, which you receive input from before any belief is formed.

It is called learning the hard way. Or learning to late in order to avoid the consequences of our actions.

No, belief and knowledge are simultaneous in such a case.
Neither is it defined as NOT needing to be any of those things.

Indeed, the idea of being able to unconsciously believe a thing is silly to me; every example of belief ever discussed in this forum has been predicated on the believer being aware of the belief. What would be the justification for suddenly calling this into question?

Is all awareness belief? That may be the crux of the matter...

I disagree. If you walk into a room and accidentally touch a hot stove top without knowing it's hot, you know it's dangerous/hot before you believe it.

Most knowledge is indeed belief-based, but some is based on brute sense perception, which you receive input from before any belief is formed.

If you "accidently touching a hot stove top without knowing it's hot" entails belief.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
It is called learning the hard way. Or learning to late in order to avoid the consequences of our actions.






If you "accidently touching a hot stove top without knowing it's hot" entails belief.
So if you touch a hot stove believing it to be cold, you won't get burned?
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Strawman. No, I am saying that a child that as never been burnt before can learn from their parents by believing them that a stove can burn you.
But of you believe truly that the stove is cold, you won't burn, unless belief can be false.

Incidentally, the definition of "straw man" is not "an argument I cannot answer so I'll avoid it."
 

Tercon

Well-known member
But of you believe truly that the stove is cold, you won't burn, unless belief can be false.

Incidentally, the definition of "straw man" is not "an argument I cannot answer so I'll avoid it."

Another strawman. But I don't believe nor disbelieve anything that isn't the truth and reality. You can't pretend to be participating in and with reality and be in reality. Rather reality is always in the context of real-time and present tense.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Another strawman. But I don't believe nor disbelieve anything that isn't the truth and reality. You can't pretend to be participating in and with reality and be in reality. Rather reality is always in the context of real-time and present tense.
 
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