The LORD's Prayer and becoming a theologian of the cross

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Dr Paulson at the Outlaw God podcast is continuing to go through the Catechism and has reached his introduction to the LORD's Prayer. The LORD's Prayer is how parents teach their children to become theologians of the cross.

It is a prayer of trust in the promise rather than in one's feelings, or a kind of spiritual discipline that merits something before God.

The podcast provides interesting background or supplemental material to Forde's On Being A Theologian Of The Cross from Scripture, Luther's writings, and from Paulson's contemporary perspective.
 
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Dr Paulson at the Outlaw God podcast is continuing to go through the Catechism and has reached his introduction to the LORD's Prayer. The LORD's Prayer is how parents teach their children to become theologians of the cross.

It is a prayer of trust in the promise rather than in one's feelings, or a kind of spiritual discipline that merits something before God.

The podcast provides interesting background or supplemental material to Forde's On Being A Theologian Of The Cross from Scripture, Luther's writings, and from Paulson's contemporary perspective.
I lent my copy of Forde's book to a friend 10 years ago. Still missing.

On the other hand, back in 2012 Rev. Paul McCain posted a curious blog entry on Luther's theology of the cross is "not quite gospel" and "sublutheran." His old post can be found here (thanks to the Internet Archive) and my comments on it are here.
 
I lent my copy of Forde's book to a friend 10 years ago. Still missing.

On the other hand, back in 2012 Rev. Paul McCain posted a curious blog entry on Luther's theology of the cross is "not quite gospel" and "sublutheran." His old post can be found here (thanks to the Internet Archive) and my comments on it are here.
Thanks. That will be an interesting read for me because I and think most or all Lutheran's, including Luther, would agree that it is not Gospel. But the characterization by McCain as sub-lutheran Is at this point a mystery to me.

Btw, in memory of my friend who passed away about a week ago, God saves and uses sinful people as the body of Christ because the Christian faith is faith in Christ rather faith in one's own faith, or faith in the faith of another sinner.
 
Thanks. That will be an interesting read for me because I and think most or all Lutheran's, including Luther, would agree that it is not Gospel. But the characterization by McCain as sub-lutheran Is at this point a mystery to me.

Btw, in memory of my friend who passed away about a week ago, God saves and uses sinful people as the body of Christ because the Christian faith is faith in Christ rather faith in one's own faith, or faith in the faith of another sinner.
Ah, just googled Rev. McCain and found out he passed away in 2020 at the age of 58. I had some very cordial interactions with him in the mid 2000's. He linked to my blog articles a few times, and also sent me some CPH books to read and review.
 
I lent my copy of Forde's book to a friend 10 years ago. Still missing.

On the other hand, back in 2012 Rev. Paul McCain posted a curious blog entry on Luther's theology of the cross is "not quite gospel" and "sublutheran." His old post can be found here (thanks to the Internet Archive) and my comments on it are here.
Ok, in light of the skewed starting point I see what he was driving at. Thanks for the links.
 
Dr Paulson at the Outlaw God podcast is continuing to go through the Catechism and has reached his introduction to the LORD's Prayer. The LORD's Prayer is how parents teach their children to become theologians of the cross.

It is a prayer of trust in the promise rather than in one's feelings, or a kind of spiritual discipline that merits something before God.

The podcast provides interesting background or supplemental material to Forde's On Being A Theologian Of The Cross from Scripture, Luther's writings, and from Paulson's contemporary perspective.
Hi BJ,

I like the nugget that is almost always overlooked in The Lord's Prayer.... find anything that pops out to you?

@Tertiumquid
 
Hi BJ,

I like the nugget that is almost always overlooked in The Lord's Prayer.... find anything that pops out to you?

@Tertiumquid
Hi Arch!

No, I'm not sure what a Roman Catholic would think gets overlooked, but we are an open book when it comes to the LORD's prayer. https://bookofconcord.org/small-catechism/the-lords-prayer/
There is a longer explanation in the Large Catechism.

What do you find gets overlooked in the LORD's Prayer?

Fwiw, the first podcast on the prayer itself, Our Father..., has been dropped. They usually drop on Tuesdays, after 12pm ET.
 
Hi Arch!

No, I'm not sure what a Roman Catholic would think gets overlooked, but we are an open book when it comes to the LORD's prayer. https://bookofconcord.org/small-catechism/the-lords-prayer/
There is a longer explanation in the Large Catechism.

What do you find gets overlooked in the LORD's Prayer?

Fwiw, the first podcast on the prayer itself, Our Father..., has been dropped. They usually drop on Tuesdays, after 12pm ET.
Mt 6:9-11

The Lord’s Prayer

“This is how you are to pray:

Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread; ....

[What would be our daily bread?... The Eucharist is offered at Mass every day!!!]​



Something not "daily," but something "supersubstantial" has taken place…. If you peer under the veil of the English word "daily," you will find this wondrous nugget of a word: ἐπιούσιον, or, transliterated, epiousion.

The word epiousion, an adjective modifying the word bread (ἄρτον = arton), is the accusative form of the adjective epiousios. It is the only adjective in the entirety of the Lord's Prayer, suggesting a special or unique importance.
 
Mt 6:9-11

The Lord’s Prayer

“This is how you are to pray:

Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread; ....

[What would be our daily bread?... The Eucharist is offered at Mass every day!!!]​



Something not "daily," but something "supersubstantial" has taken place…. If you peer under the veil of the English word "daily," you will find this wondrous nugget of a word: ἐπιούσιον, or, transliterated, epiousion.

The word epiousion, an adjective modifying the word bread (ἄρτον = arton), is the accusative form of the adjective epiousios. It is the only adjective in the entirety of the Lord's Prayer, suggesting a special or unique importance.
That isn't what the passage says or means. If one sticks to the immediate context then the common English translation is adequate.

The interpretation of the passage you offer is a creative special pleading that relies on a swing and a miss of a translation into Latin by Jerome which confuses pagan philosophy with the words of Christ.

If a person were to accept that flight of fancy by Jerome then would also have to assume a figure of speech reflecting a further misinterpretation of Scripture because of the Roman Catholic custom of the Supper in one kind.

As always the immediate context rules in reaching a right interpretation.
 
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and yet that is the prayer right before the Eucharistic feast.
Hi Arch,

The liturgy is adiaphora so there won't be anything of significant value to be found in a discussion of liturgy.

However, it is granted that the more modern Roman Catholic Church may find greater significance in the liturgical order than the early post Jerome Latin speaking church.

This observation is off the top of my head because the conclusion of the service for the hearers and catechumens was the LORD's Prayer, was it not? In other words, the LORD's prayer belonged to the general service rather than the closed communion?
 
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Hi Arch,

The liturgy is adiaphora so there won't be anything of significant value to be found in a discussion of liturgy.

However, it is granted that the more modern Roman Catholic Church may find greater significance in the liturgical order than the early post Jerome Latin speaking church.

This observation is off the top of my head because the conclusion of the service for the hearers and catechumens was the LORD's Prayer, was it not? In other words, the LORD's prayer belonged to the general service rather than the closed communion?
What do you think 'daily bread' is?
 
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What do you think 'daily bread' is?
All that God gives us to sustain us in this life.

The Fourth Petition.

4Give us this day our daily bread.
What does this mean?

Answer: God gives daily bread, even without our prayer, to all wicked men; but we pray in this petition that He would lead us to know it, and to receive our daily bread with thanksgiving.

What is meant by daily bread?

Answer: Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.

(Source: https://bookofconcord.org/small-catechism/the-lords-prayer/ )
 
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All that God gives us to sustain us in this life.
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

CCC 1322
The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"

1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."136 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."137
 
and yet that is the prayer right before the Eucharistic feast.
We say this prayer all the time in church, with or without Communion. Nowhere does Jesus imply the daily bread here is the Eucharist, since He does not mention the wine. Also, He did not command that this prayer be spoken before the Eucharist, which He had not yet instituted. Jesus is simply asking for food to sustain us physically each day.

Another case of Catholicism's a priori coloring the interpretation of a Biblical verse--and without cause.
 
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

CCC 1322
The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"

1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."136 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."137
We're back to a consequence of Roman Catholicism's obscuring of Christian baptism. The explanation above is in part to fulfill the void which they created.

Its not as if the LORD's Supper is excluded from daily bread, after all Luther is basically following the creation account in Genesis.
 
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