The many were “made sinners”?

Sketo

Well-known member
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
(Rom 5:19)


First, we must ask, did Adam sin because he was “made sinner”…
or was Adam “madedifferent than “the many”?

If you agree that Adam was not “made
sinner”…
then you must admit that “the many were made” different than Adam.



Second, we must establish what the verse means by “made sinners” and “made righteous”…

Can this be done by remaining “Consistent” in both instances of the word “made”?



For your convenience here is the (Strong) meaning of the word “made” used in both instances…

G2525 (Strong)
καθίστημι
kathistēmi
kath-is'-tay-mee

From G2596 and G2476; to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Total KJV occurrences: 22
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Where ppl go wrong is they try to view ppl being born like Adam pre-fall, sinless, and that’s not even remotely close to being biblically correct. First off, Adam was created, we are procreated. So, that runs their belief right off the rails from scat. Second, Adam was sinless, and lived in a Garden that was free of sin, they can’t say that about all born, even from Cain.


Now, Adam was our representative in that Garden. By his disobedience, we were all made sinners. This shows that the doctrine of imputation is correct. Even from conception we are made sinners. There’s no escaping this.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
(Rom 5:19)


First, we must ask, did Adam sin because he was “made sinner”…
or was Adam “madedifferent than “the many”?

If you agree that Adam was not “made
sinner”…
then you must admit that “the many were made” different than Adam.



Second, we must establish what the verse means by “made sinners” and “made righteous”…

Can this be done by remaining “Consistent” in both instances of the word “made”?



For your convenience here is the (Strong) meaning of the word “made” used in both instances…

G2525 (Strong)
καθίστημι
kathistēmi
kath-is'-tay-mee

From G2596 and G2476; to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Total KJV occurrences: 22
What changed in Adam and Eve when they fell?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
(Rom 5:19)


First, we must ask, did Adam sin because he was “made sinner”…
or was Adam “madedifferent than “the many”?

If you agree that Adam was not “made
sinner”…
then you must admit that “the many were made” different than Adam.



Second, we must establish what the verse means by “made sinners” and “made righteous”…

Can this be done by remaining “Consistent” in both instances of the word “made”?



For your convenience here is the (Strong) meaning of the word “made” used in both instances…

G2525 (Strong)
καθίστημι
kathistēmi
kath-is'-tay-mee

From G2596 and G2476; to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Total KJV occurrences: 22
One thing that can be useful in understanding a Greek word is to look at, in this case 22, occurences of the word and see how that word is generally being used, and then of course specifically in the verse in question.

The word does not seem in those 22 contexts to mean "made equal to, made to become"
Just a note about usage of the word, but not clear what to make of it
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
One thing that can be useful in understanding a Greek word is to look at, in this case 22, occurences of the word and see how that word is generally being used, and then of course specifically in the verse in question.

And the "Greek scholar" once again weighs in with his opinion...

The word does not seem in those 22 contexts to mean "made equal to, made to become"
Just a note about usage of the word, but not clear what to make of it

From BDAG:

καθίστημι/καθιστάνω
1.
to take someone somewhere, bring, conduct, take Josh 6:23; 1 Km 5:3; 2 Ch 28:15; Ac 17:15.
2. to assign someone a position of authority, appoint, put in charge (
a. someone over (of) someth. or someone τινὰ ἐπί τινος ( Gen 41:41; Num 3:10; Da 2:48; (Ps 8:7).
b. w. acc. authorize, appoint ( Tit 1:5. Hb 8:3. Hb 5:1. Lk 12:14; Ac 7:10; Hb 7:28
3. cause someone to experience someth., make, cause τινά τι 2 Pt 1:8. Ro 5:19
 

tdidymas

Active member
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
(Rom 5:19)


First, we must ask, did Adam sin because he was “made sinner”…
or was Adam “madedifferent than “the many”?

If you agree that Adam was not “made
sinner”…
then you must admit that “the many were made” different than Adam.



Second, we must establish what the verse means by “made sinners” and “made righteous”…

Can this be done by remaining “Consistent” in both instances of the word “made”?



For your convenience here is the (Strong) meaning of the word “made” used in both instances…

G2525 (Strong)
καθίστημι
kathistēmi
kath-is'-tay-mee

From G2596 and G2476; to place down (permanently), that is, (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy: - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.
Total KJV occurrences: 22
It seems to me according to how I read the context, that "made" could be read as "regarded," that is, regarded by God. So it might read "by one man many were regarded by God as sinners..." because of Adam's representation of mankind. So then, justification by faith in Christ reverses that judicial condition so that in Christ "many were regarded by God as righteous."

So then "made sinners" is a way of saying that God then had a prejudice against mankind that only the death of Christ could rectify. Further, that this prejudice was real is shown by the fact that all people lacked a spiritual joining with the Holy Spirit, thus are born spiritually "dead." It takes God "having mercy" by saving some people by His grace, that is, reversing His prejudicial action against mankind (as a result of Adam's sin) by joining His Spirit with the spirit of those individuals (namely regeneration). Thus, in Christ many were "made righteous."
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Two questions.
What was the beginning and ending nature?
What scripture are you getting our answer from?

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Gen 2:17)

I believe the “beginning naturewas the opposite of what “thou shalt surely die” means…

…and the “ending natureis what “thou shalt surely die” means.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
We kinda know that.

Did they change physically, biologicaly?
Did they lose a shekinah glory?

Well, I think this was a whole destruction of the physical and spirit/soul... Mankind's Bodies get sick and die. Mankind's Soul has numerous imbalances. Mankind's inability to have a relationship with God is demonstrated time and time again... I have heard this analogy... When Adam fell, mankind's ability to perfectly reflect God's image was broken like a mirror that falls off of a wall... Within the Soul/Spirit is where our nature resides...

I hope I was clear... Thanks for asking...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Gen 2:17)

I believe the “beginning naturewas the opposite of what “thou shalt surely die” means…

…and the “ending natureis what “thou shalt surely die” means.
i think that is about the gist of the position on that, fairly standard,
over the years it has not made sense to me that way.
I do not see two natures in those verses
 

Sketo

Well-known member
God said - “for [IN THE DAY] that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:17)

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:” (Gen 3:4)

God said “in the day… surely die”…
The serpent says “Ye shall not surly die”…

Who spoke truth?

1) God
2) the serpent
3) both
 

Sketo

Well-known member
i think that is about the gist of the position on that, fairly standard,
over the years it has not made sense to me that way.
I do not see two natures in those verses

Can you explain what God meant by...

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Gen 2:17)
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Can you explain what God meant by...

“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Gen 2:17)
After Adam was created he could fall and be found to be in a position/condition where he could die in two ways....physically and spiritually.

Just as we can be dead in our sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1)...yet still alive physically so did Adam become. That happened the moment "his eyes were opened".

Physical death....what did Adam and Eve do to cover their sin? The answer is the first religious act, that is they made fig leaves as a covering for their sin/nakedness. Of course Genesis only tells part of the story so we have to apply a reasonable speculation...what did God do?
The following appears to be a type of Christ. God took an innocent animal, killed it and used its skin for garments and covered Adam and Eves sin/nakedness. The animal physically died, was sacrificed, in their place that day.
Adam and Eve were then cut off from the Tree of Life and began to physically die. Much like when a rose is cut from a rose bush and placed into a vase. The day the rose is cut it begans to die...appearing fresh at first but will eventually wither and die.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
After Adam was created he could fall and be found to be in a position/condition where he could die in two ways....physically and spiritually.

We know what physical death, and it’s limitations, look like in comparison to physical life…

How would you explain what spiritual death looks like, and it’s limitations, in comparison to spiritual life?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
We know what physical death, and it’s limitations, look like in comparison to physical life…

How would you explain what spiritual death looks like, and it’s limitations, in comparison to spiritual life?
Volumns have been written on that topic.

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

Compared to

10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Volumns have been written on that topic.

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

So… is it fare to say that your “physical” actions are evidence of your “spiritual” state?

Compared to

10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

If so would “good works” be the evidence of person who has been madespiritually alive”?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
i think that is about the gist of the position on that, fairly standard,
over the years it has not made sense to me that way.
I do not see two natures in those verses

Would you consider “spiritually dead” the same nature as “spiritually alive”?


“Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” (Eph 2:3)
 
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