The math of scriptural verses

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Has anyone noticed a trend here on this board? I have. And a conclusion.

Sometimes, when I post scriptures which might disagree with the critic's theology--there seems to be a trend for the critics to counter it with some other scripture which might be more friendly to their theology.

Likewise--when the critics often posts verses which seem to agree with their theology--I might post scriptures which might be more friendly to the LDS theology.

That's the way it seems.

I would like to explore some differences in intent in those two scenarios.

For example--whenever I post this scripture:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I am usually met with a scripture such as this:

John 3:16---King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Or--whenever they post a scripture such as this:

Matthew 22:36-40---King James Version
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I might post a scripture such as this:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


I would like to make a personal observation here.

Sometimes--when I post a verse in addition to those the critic post--I am adding them together--it's John3:16 + Matthew16:16-19. Or--Matthew22:36-40 + John14:15. Not one or the other--but both.

Often, whenever the critic post a verse to a verse which seems critical to their theology--it seems to be in the minus column:

John3:16 minus Matthew19:16-19 or Matthew22:36-40 minus John14:15.

IOW--one cancels out the other, or so it seems, as both can't be true in the faith alone theology. How can pitting the scriptures against one another do anything but render the Biblical text an unreliable source of truth? Do we add them together--or accept they cancel each other out?

(making compatible arguments for the verses is another area I would like to discuss)

Comments?
 

brotherofJared

Active member
And these are the people who claim that they take the scriptures as a whole and that we cherry-pick. I see the same math that you do. I usually call it as ignoring what they don't like and accepting only what they do like. There's no harmony and no effort to show how it all fits together. Ps 82 is a prime example. The list of verses they provide talks about some other group of gods that most understand the be the false gods of the nations, but they never explain how the gods that God calls gods fit into those other verses. Where's the harmony?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And these are the people who claim that they take the scriptures as a whole and that we cherry-pick. I see the same math that you do. I usually call it as ignoring what they don't like and accepting only what they do like. There's no harmony and no effort to show how it all fits together.
And that's my concern--how do we fit the scriptures which connect our works with eternal life-- with the "faith" and "belief" verses?

The LDS add them together--as being integral to one another.

The faith alone can't do that--as it violates their theology.

The LDS believe keeping the commandments is integral to faith in Christ--as an engine is integral to a car.

The faith alone separate faith and works out in obtaining salvation. It's a faith without works (dead faith) which one is saved through.

The faith alone alter and rearrange the ordering process of the scriptures to fit their theology, IE--

John 10:27-28----King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That follows this order:

1) Hear
2) Follow
3) Eternal life

The faith alone alter that to:

1) eternal life
2) follow

The faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT.
 

CrowCross

Active member
Has anyone noticed a trend here on this board? I have. And a conclusion.

Sometimes, when I post scriptures which might disagree with the critic's theology--there seems to be a trend for the critics to counter it with some other scripture which might be more friendly to their theology.

Likewise--when the critics often posts verses which seem to agree with their theology--I might post scriptures which might be more friendly to the LDS theology.

That's the way it seems.

I would like to explore some differences in intent in those two scenarios.

For example--whenever I post this scripture:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Problem is..and you've been told time and time again....you don't present the whole verse. You cheat.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Problem is..and you've been told time and time again....you don't present the whole verse. You cheat.

LOL!!! What constitutes cheating is posting scriptures which defy faith alone theology.

Care to give engaging the scriptures a try?

"The faith alone alter and rearrange the ordering process of the scriptures to fit their theology, IE--

John 10:27-28----King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That follows this order:

1) Hear
2) Follow
3) Eternal life

The faith alone alter that to:

1) eternal life
2) follow

The faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT."
 

CrowCross

Active member
LOL!!! What constitutes cheating is posting scriptures which defy faith alone theology.

Care to give engaging the scriptures a try?

"The faith alone alter and rearrange the ordering process of the scriptures to fit their theology, IE--

John 10:27-28----King James Version
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

That follows this order:

1) Hear
2) Follow
3) Eternal life

The faith alone alter that to:

1) eternal life
2) follow

The faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT."
Dude, you didn't post the entire verse. Thats cheating.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Dude, you didn't post the entire verse. Thats cheating.
I find a period at the end of the verse:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What are you claiming isn't the entire verse?

What I'm claiming is that it defies faith alone theology--but is what one will find being taught in the LDS church. It's a doctrine in the LDS church.

That's not cheating, but having the Bible favor the LDS theology is an unfair advantage.
 

CrowCross

Active member
I find a period at the end of the verse:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What are you claiming isn't the entire verse?

What I'm claiming is that it defies faith alone theology--but is what one will find being taught in the LDS church. It's a doctrine in the LDS church.

That's not cheating, but having the Bible favor the LDS theology is an unfair advantage.
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T END THERE. You're cheating. Your LDS church has practiced DECEPTION by taking the verse out of context by chopping off the ending.

20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T END THERE. You're cheating. Your LDS church has practiced DECEPTION by taking the verse out of context by chopping off the ending.

20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Exactly. Jesus knew what was wrong with the young man. And He knew full well that the guy had NOT kept all of the commandments perfectly all his life. No one can. By telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor, and follow Him, Jesus showed the young man what his REAL problem was--putting his wealth above God. Thus breaking the first and greatest commandment and ultimately, all of them, as James says. Jesus used the Law to show him his sin. But the man chose his wealth over Jesus Christ.

No one can keep God's commandments perfectly. NO ONE, except Jesus Christ. Those in Christ-dishonoring, pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it, nor can they, because they do not have the indwelling HS that would enable them to understand on a spiritual level. But they are ultimately afraid to let Jesus save them and save them completely--because they would need then to give up control of their eternal destiny and place their total trust in Jesus Christ to save them, and not their own "works"--like temple works, covenants, and ordinances. They just do NOT trust Jesus to save them COMPLETELY.
 

CrowCross

Active member
Exactly. Jesus knew what was wrong with the young man. And He knew full well that the guy had NOT kept all of the commandments perfectly all his life. No one can. By telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor, and follow Him, Jesus showed the young man what his REAL problem was--putting his wealth above God. Thus breaking the first and greatest commandment and ultimately, all of them, as James says. Jesus used the Law to show him his sin. But the man chose his wealth over Jesus Christ.

No one can keep God's commandments perfectly. NO ONE, except Jesus Christ. Those in Christ-dishonoring, pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it, nor can they, because they do not have the indwelling HS that would enable them to understand on a spiritual level. But they are ultimately afraid to let Jesus save them and save them completely--because they would need then to give up control of their eternal destiny and place their total trust in Jesus Christ to save them, and not their own "works"--like temple works, covenants, and ordinances. They just do NOT trust Jesus to save them COMPLETELY.
Thanks for that Bonnie. The Mormons cheat when they don't present the entire verse. I find it very disheartning when they have to do this to scripture in order to make their theology work.

Perhaps the most important part is when Jesus said..."and come, follow me."...
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T END THERE.

You are right--God ADDED another requirement, other than keeping the commandments being comported with eternal life.

How does that vindicate your theology--or make your point?

In fact--it leads me to ask--what is your point?

Your LDS church has practiced DECEPTION by taking the verse out of context by chopping off the ending.

20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

How are you using that argument to preclude God's connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Are you claiming that because God added an additional requirement--it means God's connection between keeping the commandments and eternal life--is broken?

How so?

Crow--that is a very lame argument, IMO--and does nothing to make your point. It amounts to little less than a cover up and cancel out attempt.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Exactly. Jesus knew what was wrong with the young man. And He knew full well that the guy had NOT kept all of the commandments perfectly all his life. No one can. By telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor, and follow Him, Jesus showed the young man what his REAL problem was--putting his wealth above God. Thus breaking the first and greatest commandment and ultimately, all of them, as James says. Jesus used the Law to show him his sin. But the man chose his wealth over Jesus Christ.

No one can keep God's commandments perfectly. NO ONE, except Jesus Christ. Those in Christ-dishonoring, pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it, nor can they, because they do not have the indwelling HS that would enable them to understand on a spiritual level.

Labeling those who connect keeping the commandments with eternal life--as " pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it"---only cages Christ, and His apostles-- within those confines:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
 

CrowCross

Active member
You are right--God ADDED another requirement, other than keeping the commandments being comported with eternal life.

How does that vindicate your theology--or make your point?

In fact--it leads me to ask--what is your point?
You cheated people who follow this forum....you changed the context when you cheated and didn't present the entire verse.

In fact you guarantee yourself a spot in hell with your demonic theolgy....AS YOU CAN'T KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS AS WELL AS THE YOUNG MAN CLAIMED HE DID. If you're going to rely on the law and commandments...you better be PERFECT...from birth. Not one single sin....and I know you sin EVERY day.

So have fun with your broken theology.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You cheated people who follow this forum....you changed the context when you cheated and didn't present the entire verse.

Again--you haven't explained for us how you are relating that to the Savior connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What is the connection you are attempting to make?

In fact you guarantee yourself a spot in hell with your demonic theolgy....AS YOU CAN'T KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS AS WELL AS THE YOUNG MAN CLAIMED HE DID. If you're going to rely on the law and commandments...you better be PERFECT...from birth. Not one single sin....and I know you sin EVERY day.

First--keeping the commandments was first, and lastly--a part of the gospel--and eternal life, as the Savior demonstrated above. The Law isn't.

Next--whatever happened to the gospel of grace? You make it sound as if God's grace disappeared. Crow--God's grace is with those who are willing to change--all along the road to perfection--not just at one point.

So--why can't man repent and change? What says man must be perfect from the start? That salvation isn't a process? That we must become perfect here? That progression ends here?

Where do we find that defeatist attitude with Christ? All things were possible with Him--given His grace, and the eternities.

What isn't possible--is those who refuse to obey and change--inheriting the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Crow--that defies the theology pawned here by the critics.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Again--you haven't explained for us how you are relating that to the Savior connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What is the connection you are attempting to make?



First--keeping the commandments was first, and lastly--a part of the gospel--and eternal life, as the Savior demonstrated above. The Law isn't.

Next--whatever happened to the gospel of grace? You make it sound as if God's grace disappeared. Crow--God's grace is with those who are willing to change--all along the road to perfection--not just at one point.

So--why can't man repent and change? What says man must be perfect from the start? That salvation isn't a process? That we must become perfect here? That progression ends here?

Where do we find that defeatist attitude with Christ? All things were possible with Him--given His grace, and the eternities.

What isn't possible--is those who refuse to obey and change--inheriting the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Crow--that defies the theology pawned here by the critics.

It must be incredibly sad and discouraging to be so unable to defend your bankrupt (LDS) theology, that you have to constantly try to derail discussion away from it.

It must also be morally challenging to constantly break forum rules, contrary to the teaching of the Bible to obey all authority.

But as long as your behaviour here confirms that Mormonism cannot be defended, and that Mormons are immoral people (although I think polygamy is proof enough of that), I guess it's a win. ;)
 

CrowCross

Active member
Again--you haven't explained for us how you are relating that to the Savior connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

What is the connection you are attempting to make?



First--keeping the commandments was first, and lastly--a part of the gospel--and eternal life, as the Savior demonstrated above. The Law isn't.

Next--whatever happened to the gospel of grace? You make it sound as if God's grace disappeared. Crow--God's grace is with those who are willing to change--all along the road to perfection--not just at one point.

So--why can't man repent and change? What says man must be perfect from the start? That salvation isn't a process? That we must become perfect here? That progression ends here?

Where do we find that defeatist attitude with Christ? All things were possible with Him--given His grace, and the eternities.

What isn't possible--is those who refuse to obey and change--inheriting the kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Crow--that defies the theology pawned here by the critics.
DUDE...you're a broken record. You cheated and have lost alll credibility.

You posted 1 Cor 6....Christians have had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. Now, if you want to continue to earn your righteousness...have at it. You'll never get there. Hint, that's why Jesus came.

Romans 3:21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said: Again--you haven't explained for us how you are relating that to the Savior connecting keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It must be incredibly sad and discouraging to be so unable to defend your bankrupt (LDS) theology,.....

I believe what is sad to the faith alone--is that Christ defends it for the LDS:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Theo--could you explain for us how you fit your theology into that testimony?

Thank you Jesus--for that testimony! The LDS can now teach the truth about keeping the commandments.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo--could you explain for us how you fit your theology into that testimony?

<sigh>

You've asked me that probably over a hundred times by now.

And over a hundred times I've given you the SAME answer:

"[My] theology" is NOT on-topic for this forum."

This is the MORMONISM forum.
This forum is for discussing MORMONISM.
I'm not a Mormon.
You are.

Why are you so afraid to discuss/defend your beliefs?
 
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