The math of scriptural verses

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Bonnie

Super Member
You just prove for one and all that Mormonism is a big step BACKWARDS, and is condemned by the Book of Hebrews.

Mormons go back to the OT paradigm of:
- useless priests;
- useless temples;
- ineffective commandments.

No wonder they take such puffed-up pride of CLAIMING to have Jewish ancestry.
Seems to me, it is Mormonism that backpedals--all the way to the LoM--but maybe only the parts that allow their church to make money off its members...
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That's a problematic claim, IMO. This is the reason why:

Tithing started with Abraham--under the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the reason Malachi pointed to the fathers:

Malachi 3:6-10---King James Version
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Tithing didn't start with the Mosaic Law--but the gospel. That's the reason it was taught as a RETURN to paying tithing.

And that is the reason tithing can remain--when the Mosaic Law was fulfilled--because it was instituted under the gospel--before the Mosaic Law was added to the gospel.
No, let's start with Jeremiah 31:

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will NOT be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,

declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts
.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.

Hebrews quotes these verses, doesn't it? In showing that we are in the NEW and BETTER covenant in Jesus' blood, and not in the blood of bulls and goats.

The High Priest of a New Covenant​

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

So, the first covenant, the Law of Moses one, is OBSOLETE--isn't it, dberrie? So, why don't you answer my question about why your church doesn't follow the OTHER OT LoM laws--like the kosher food laws? Still eat pork and shellfish? Or the clean/unclean laws--like the ones regarding women during their menstrual cycle? Why doesn't your church observe THOSE laws?

Answer--your church cannot make money on THOSE old laws--can it?

Now, can you show us from the NEW TESTAMENT where church members were COMMANDED to tithe to the church? COMMANDED? And where they were COMMANDED to do all of the other things I mentioned?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Because the law of tithing was part of the Law of Moses--is the NT church under the Law of Moses, in the OLD covenant?

The "Mosaic Law"--as what was added to the gospel--no. The Mosaic Law--as it was lived in it's entirety by the Jews--yes.

One has to remember--the "Mosaic Law" were the rituals, etc.--plus the gospel, as the "Mosaic Law" was added to the gospel:

Galatians 3:18-19---King James Version
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What was "added"? The rituals, etc. to form what was known as the "Mosaic Law".

What was it "added" to? The gospel--which was present 400 years prior to the Law of Moses.

The commandments fit that mold also--as Abraham had the commandments 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law--which became part of the Mosaic Law when the Law was added to the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Which is the reason why, when Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law--and it passed away--the commandments remained--because it was part of the gospel, before the Mosaic Law was added.

And, it's the reason the Savior could connect keeping the commandments with eternal life, minus the rituals of the Mosaic Law:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--why wouldn't tithing--which was also practiced by Abraham, before the Mosaic Law--remain also--as it was part of the gospel--before the Mosaic Law was added also?
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
Someday these two Mormons may actually realize they are simply making assumptions and that their assumptions are not facts and certainly not biblical.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Where does the BIBLE (not you) teach that "tithes" were part of "the gospel"?

Give us the verse, or stop making the false claim.



Where does the BIBLE teach that "Abraham paid tithing through--the gospel".

Hint: The term "gospel" doesn't appear ANYWHERE in the Old Testament.



Where do you find the "gospel" "400 years prior to the Mosaic Law"?



Sorry, but simply CLAIMING something over and over, doesn't make it so.
This is most certainly true.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
That's still the gospel.

And it was under the gospel Abraham paid tithing--

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So--if Abraham lived under the gospel, and paid tithes--and the Lord claimed He gave tithes to the fathers, with the conditions those who did not obey the ordinance would be robbing God--then that indicates tithing was a command to them, including Abraham, and not an option:

Malachi 3:7-10---King James Version
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

God takes it backward through the " the days of your fathers"--which certainly included father Abraham. What is your evidence those conditions, which pertain to tithing, IE--robbery, if one failed to pay tithes---would not be applied to Abraham--seeing he was a father to Israel--and it can be shown Abraham paid tithing in the gospel?

That only indicates tithing was a command, and that Abraham paid tithing in the gospel. That does damage to your speculations of it being an option, or that tithing was not a part of the gospel.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now--the end conclusion is--when the Mosaic Law was fulfilled--the gospel remained--which gospel Abraham had, tithing being a part of that gospel.

Bump for Bonnie
 

Mod10

Moderator
Staff member
Everyone, I moved most of the posts about tithing to the Apologetics board, as there was already a thread about the OT and Tithing in place there. It is basically off topic for Mormonism. If anyone wishes to continue debating it, please go here--

The OT--and tithing | CARM Forums
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why are you so afraid to discuss/defend your beliefs?

Theo--I discuss my beliefs with every scripture I post:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

How do you match that up with your theology?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
Exactly. Jesus knew what was wrong with the young man. And He knew full well that the guy had NOT kept all of the commandments perfectly all his life. No one can. By telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor, and follow Him, Jesus showed the young man what his REAL problem was--putting his wealth above God. Thus breaking the first and greatest commandment and ultimately, all of them, as James says. Jesus used the Law to show him his sin. But the man chose his wealth over Jesus Christ.

No one can keep God's commandments perfectly. NO ONE, except Jesus Christ. Those in Christ-dishonoring, pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it, nor can they, because they do not have the indwelling HS that would enable them to understand on a spiritual level.

Labeling those who connect keeping the commandments with eternal life--as " pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it"---only cages Christ, and His apostles-- within those confines:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Bump for Bonnie--or anyone
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Bump for Bonnie--or anyone

If people don't respond to your nonsense the first time, why do you think it more likely that they will respond if you harass them?

If they chose not to respond, then that was their choice. Why continue to harass people when they've already chosen not to respond, especially when you're asking the same bogus questions that we've answered a hundred times already?

If you are that needy for attention, maybe you should get a dog?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
If people don't respond to your nonsense the first time, why do you think it more likely that they will respond if you harass them?

If they chose not to respond, then that was their choice. Why continue to harass people when they've already chosen not to respond, especially when you're asking the same bogus questions that we've answered a hundred times already?

If you are that needy for attention, maybe you should get a dog?

The Moderators have stated one can bump twice. If it was harassment to bump at all--it would not be allowed.

So--care to address the concern?

"Labeling those who connect keeping the commandments with eternal life--as " pseudo-Christian cults just do NOT understand it"---only cages Christ, and His apostles-- within those confines:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The Moderators have stated one can bump twice. If it was harassment to bump at all--it would not be allowed.

The habit of "bumping" was if a THREAD (not a reponse) got buried into page 2 in a short time (such as before a day had passed), "bumping" put it on the front page, so people could more easily see it.

It was NEVER intended to be used to harass people, "Waaah!!! Nobody will respond to me! I need some attention! Please respond to me now! Waaaahhh!"

If you don't think it's harassment, maybe we should take a poll?

So--care to address the concern?

Again, I've already addressed it over a hundred times, and you simply ignore the response, and post your worthless garbage yet again. So why should I waste my time? Especially since YOU are the one who keeps RUNNING AWAY from Scriptures which CONTRADICT your view.

Care to comment on any of the following?:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Eph. 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5
So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.







1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where does this say anything about what is needed for "salvation"?

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That is a reference to the ten commandments?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

That is a reference to the ten commandments?

You skipped over all the passages I quoted in my previous post, and your proof-texts still don’t say what you claim they do. All you’re doing is repeating yourself and wasting my time.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
You skipped over all the passages I quoted in my previous post, and your proof-texts still don’t say what you claim they do. All you’re doing is repeating yourself and wasting my time.
You skipped over the passage that inconveniently, for you, connected keeping the commandments with salvation. I wonder why you did that.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You skipped over the passage that inconveniently, for you, connected keeping the commandments with salvation.

If you think they showed any such "connection", you both failed miserably trying to demonstrate it.

What he did was like connecting two verses:

"And Judas went out and hanged himself."
"And Jesus said, go and do thou likewise."

So when are you going to obey Jesus, BoJ?

I wonder why you did that.

Because he provided a bankrupt argument.

In the meantime, why did HE (and you) run away from the following?:

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

2Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Rom. 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You skipped over all the passages I quoted in my previous post, and your proof-texts still don’t say what you claim they do.

The quoted Biblical verses show a connection between keeping the commandments and eternal life:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 
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