The Mercy of the Lord Endureth Forever - Except for the Billions Burning in Hell for Eternity.

[Theo1689]

But the other 3 are still going to be executed in the end.

Where did I say that?
He pardoned them.
You see, you prove over and over again that you don't even understand what Calvinism (or the Bible) teaches.

They're still condemned murderers. So I don't see how the analogy fits your beliefs.

That's because you don't want to understand my beliefs.
You only want to attack them, and actual FACTS get in the way of that.

That's not my theology. God loves everyone enough to let them make their own choice, even if they choose to reject Him. If He said, "I don't care what you want; I'm overriding your decisions", then that's not love - that's enslavement.

Enslavement doesn't deny love.
But if you deny enslavement, then you deny the BIBLE.
But then again, we already knew that, didn't we?:

Rom. 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom. 6:18 and, having been set free [passive] from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

So He does care about everyone, but if they choose to pursue money (Judas), vanity (the Pharisees), or pride (Nebuchadnezzar), He'll suffer it to happen but always calls them to repent.

Any father who "allows" their children to suffer, or die when he could prevent it, even by force, is an EVIL "father".

I won't post anything further because to explain my theology will mean explaining the entire Orthodox system, and I don't have time for that big a discussion at present.

You don't need to "post anything further", because it's quite clear from all the passages I've cited and quoted that your theology is directly contradictory to God's word, the BIBLE.

 

[armylngst]

Like you and I did.

They may have liked the "Consequences" a LOT!! and not believeing in the eventual penalty for their actions, didn't see that as an issue

Not even related to the issue.

That, at least, is Correct. NO HUMAN deserves anything other that the Lake of fire - because of our SIN.

Just "Weasel words" meaning nothing. OF COURSE God isn't "obligated" to do anything (except what He's "obligated" Himself to - His Word). Romans 9 is the Calvie's favorite passage. Calvinism teaches that God, before creation, selected certain TOTALLY DEPRAVED ("T") individuals arbitrarily ("U") to save, cleanse, justify, and become Children of God, and by default, also selected certain individuals (quite possibly the MAJORITY OF HUMANITY) to damn. And teaches that NEITHER collection of Humans had any choice in the matter.

No matter how you "Spin it" that's Calvinism in a nutshell.

However, God did not have to choose any individuals to damn, as they already damned themselves. How can you not understand something that simple. There are none righteous, no not one. You do realize that the prophecy explains why there are none righteous, there are none that do good, and there are none that seek after God (in and of themselves), right? They all went "their own way". It does not say God made a way for them to go. They went their own way. Total Depravity says that EVERYONE, even the ELECT was going their own way. However, Jesus put it best when He said that no one can be saved. So not only were they totally depraved, they, even the elect, were doomed to remain that way. However... Jesus followed that up with "but with God, all things are possible." So if God intervenes, those who are going their own way can seek after God. If God does not intervene... they cannot. And God chose, without merit (you say arbitrary so as to be condescending of God), those He would save, those lives within which He would interject Himself, where He Himself would directly intervene. (Such as Saul, who didn't survive his encounter with God, as Paul was the only survivor.) The prophecy shows humanity made its choice to go its own way. ALL of humanity. Without God's intervention, all would be in hell. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

However, God did not have to choose any individuals to damn, as they already damned themselves. How can you not understand something that simple.

I understand it perfectly. It's "Humanity 101".

So if God intervenes, those who are going their own way can seek after God. If God does not intervene... they cannot.

Accurate statement. NOBODY comes to Christ except they be "Drawn" (John 6:44).

And God chose, without merit (you say arbitrary so as to be condescending of God), those He would save, those lives within which He would interject Himself, where He Himself would directly intervene.

And the flip side is that He also chose without merit (arbitrarily) those that He would simply allow to perish in their SIN. (Rom 9)

ALL of humanity. Without God's intervention, all would be in hell. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

Also "Humanity 101".

 

[His clay]

The problem is that he (allegedly) picks whom to save arbitrarily. There's no logic or reasoning to it, or any merit on the part of the humans saved. And under this paradigm he even has the ability to pick everyone but actively chooses not to.

That is not the God I worship.

Would anyone here, knowing that they could save people from eternal suffering, ACTIVELY CHOOSE NOT TO?
No. But apparently the Calvinism God does.

Nor is that the idea of God that Calvinists worship. You have presented a very common caricature of unconditional election. It is born from a non-sequitur fallacy. The unconditional aspect is what is being caricatured. Just because God does not look at something in man does not mean that He chooses arbitrarily. It simply means that the reason is not found in the one chosen. It does not mean that there is no reason. Hence, God can and does choose for other reasons outside of the people that He chooses. Just in case it was missed, not having a reason found in the objects of choice does not therefore allow one to conclude that God "picks who to save arbitrarily." Your assertion is a caricature, and it makes God's grace out to be whimsical and capricious. The fact that the logic and reason is found outside of the person chosen does not allow the conclusion that God chooses arbitrarily.

For further elucidation on the whys and wherefores, please see James White's exegetical response to Leighton Flowers, found at the following link.

An exegetical response to Leighton Flowers; Ephesians 1 and Provisionalism -- James White.

A sound exgesis of the opening of Ephesians. About 53 minutes in length. Worth the time to watch.

forums.carm.org

 

[armylngst]

I understand it perfectly. It's "Humanity 101".

Accurate statement. NOBODY comes to Christ except they be "Drawn" (John 6:44).

And the flip side is that He also chose without merit (arbitrarily) those that He would simply allow to perish in their SIN. (Rom 9)

There is no flip side. Why do you believe that there is? Let's say life is a highway headed to hell. The people are going "their own way" down that road, according to prophecy. Did God choose that, or is the prophecy truthful and not a lie, and people are doing it of their own accord, going their own way? God has chosen without merit to meet some people on their own way, and to save them from themselves. Your flipside would say that God then turned around and knocked some people flat on their face and kicked them down the road into hell. God just...leaves them alone. He lets them keep going "their own way".

Consider it this way. You are given a list of 50 people, and are told to arbitrarily pick 10 to be on your team. You don't know who they are, what they look like, what their abilities are. It is completely arbitrary. After you pick 10 people do you keep going and say, and I choose you not to be on the team, and you, oh, and definitely you...not on my team. No. You stop after you pick 10 people to be on your team. Did you choose the other 40 not to be on the team? No. You chose 10 people to be on your team...and stopped. There just happens to be 40 people left over. It isn't that difficult to understand.

 

[brightfame52]

There is no flip side. Why do you believe that there is? Let's say life is a highway headed to hell. The people are going "their own way" down that road, according to prophecy. Did God choose that, or is the prophecy truthful and not a lie, and people are doing it of their own accord, going their own way? God has chosen without merit to meet some people on their own way, and to save them from themselves. Your flipside would say that God then turned around and knocked some people flat on their face and kicked them down the road into hell. God just...leaves them alone. He lets them keep going "their own way".

Consider it this way. You are given a list of 50 people, and are told to arbitrarily pick 10 to be on your team. You don't know who they are, what they look like, what their abilities are. It is completely arbitrary. After you pick 10 people do you keep going and say, and I choose you not to be on the team, and you, oh, and definitely you...not on my team. No. You stop after you pick 10 people to be on your team. Did you choose the other 40 not to be on the team? No. You chose 10 people to be on your team...and stopped. There just happens to be 40 people left over. It isn't that difficult to understand.

However God did make some people for His Purpose of wrath against their sins, I believe they are called vessels of wrath Rom 9 and Prov 16 :4 points to them also, God is active in this as He is in Election.

 

[His clay]

I agree your logic holds here about arbitrarily, as the reason could simply be labeled unknown to us.

But I don't think it's a caricature to say the Calvinistic God is not maximally loving. There are beings he does not wish the well-being of.

The Calvinist then tries to bring out the "you too" problem here, and say that a God who allows free will is not maximally loving either.

But just because God has attributes that are more important to him than our emotions feel is an acceptable level of danger for allowing victims, does not logically entail that God cannot maximally love the victims within the framework of all his attributes working in harmony.

God putting his glory above our safety, as he is glorified and honored by a true autonomous choice to serve him, naturally offends our sinful and selfish nature because we think God is reckless and irresponsible for allowing victims. But the reason we feel that offense is not purely motivated towards honoring God, but because we know we might have been the victims in the scenario, and we find that offensive.

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it. In a determinist's attempt to claim to want to glorify God they are in fact glorifying man.

Two questions:
(1) Could any theology based off the Bible, other than universalism, claim to be "maximally loving"?
(2) Where in the Bible are you getting the standard of evaluation, "maximally loving"?
-Please note that the statement, "God is love," is not the same thing as saying "God is maximally loving."

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There is no flip side. Why do you believe that there is? Let's say life is a highway headed to hell. The people are going "their own way" down that road, according to prophecy. Did God choose that, or is the prophecy truthful and not a lie, and people are doing it of their own accord, going their own way? God has chosen without merit to meet some people on their own way, and to save them from themselves.

And obviously he CHOSE not to intervene to save people from themselves.

You're trying to sell your silly idea that NOT CHOOSING "isn't a decision". But that's pure foolishness.

Consider it this way. You are given a list of 50 people, and are told to arbitrarily pick 10 to be on your team. You don't know who they are, what they look like, what their abilities are. It is completely arbitrary. After you pick 10 people do you keep going and say, and I choose you not to be on the team, and you, oh, and definitely you...not on my team. No.

Utterly ridiculous. OF COURSE you say: "I choose you not to be on the team". You do it with your ACTIONS, that that the other 40 understand completely. Apparently you never played sand-lot baseball as a kid.

ANd of course God IS NOT ignorant of the other 40. He knows everything about them from before their conception to their grave.

 

[GeneZ]

Hey all ya'll.
Brand new here with my first post - thought I'd start off with something light-hearted.

We know Psalm 136 heralds the mercy of the Lord 26 times, yet we have these translations with phrases like Eternal Punishment.
Sounds seriously contradictory to me.
Is there something nefarious afoot?

vad är dina tankar
(what are your thoughts)

Contradiction?

" Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy." Matthew 5:7​

Merciless souls exist. They show no mercy to others. and, then....

Some have no mercy for themselves when given the Gospel. They willfully condemn themselves and refuse to believe.

 

[armylngst]

However God did make some people for His Purpose of wrath against their sins, I believe they are called vessels of wrath Rom 9 and Prov 16 :4 points to them also, God is active in this as He is in Election.

True, God does say that He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, but it doesn't say that they need mercy because God chose to send them to hell. They were already on the way. Does God's relationship with people show that their fate is because God acted, or because God didn't act? (For those who are not of the elect.)

 

[armylngst]

Nor is that the idea of God that Calvinists worship. You have presented a very common caricature of unconditional election. It is born from a non-sequitur fallacy. The unconditional aspect is what is being caricatured. Just because God does not look at something in man does not mean that He chooses arbitrarily. It simply means that the reason is not found in the one chosen. It does not mean that there is no reason. Hence, God can and does choose for other reasons outside of the people that He chooses. Just in case it was missed, not having a reason found in the objects of choice does not therefore allow one to conclude that God "picks who to save arbitrarily." Your assertion is a caricature, and it makes God's grace out to be whimsical and capricious. The fact that the logic and reason is found outside of the person chosen does not allow the conclusion that God chooses arbitrarily.

For further elucidation on the whys and wherefores, please see James White's exegetical response to Leighton Flowers, found at the following link.

An exegetical response to Leighton Flowers; Ephesians 1 and Provisionalism -- James White.

A sound exgesis of the opening of Ephesians. About 53 minutes in length. Worth the time to watch.

forums.carm.org

I did not say God was arbitrary. Read more carefully. *From earlier post: "And God chose, without merit (you say arbitrary so as to be condescending of God), those He would save, those lives within which He would interject Himself, where He Himself would directly intervene."

Ephesians 1 is clear "In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." He chose according to the purpose of His will. Unconditional election, based on no merit found in man. That is not arbitrary, but it is unconditional. So, stop saying that I am saying God's choice is arbitrary. My issue with this are those who say that we believe that God specifically chose everyone going to hell to go to hell, and that it is not just the logical end to their condition. If they are not chosen for heaven, then they are GOING to hell. No choice necessary, it is going to happen.

 

[brightfame52]

True, God does say that He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, but it doesn't say that they need mercy because God chose to send them to hell. They were already on the way. Does God's relationship with people show that their fate is because God acted, or because God didn't act? (For those who are not of the elect.)

God created people correct? So He acted before they acted, and when they acted, they acted according to the purpose for which He created them for, and to their predetermined end.

 

[GeneZ]

God created people correct? So He acted before they acted, and when they acted, they acted according to the purpose for which He created them for, and to their predetermined end.

A mystery was exposed and revealed about the Son of God in the Incarnation.

The Son has two natures. One is humanity. The other nature is Deity.

Who, being in very nature God,​

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;​

rather, he made himself nothing​

by taking the very nature of a servant,​

being made in human likeness.​

And being found in appearance as a man,​

he humbled himself​

by becoming obedient to death—​

even death on a cross!​

Philippians 2:6-8 reveals that the Son took his human nature, and denied Himself to his right to simultaneously be manifested as God.
In doing so? He made himself to be as a man!

As a man? He was not omniscient.

That tells us something essential in understanding how God could create us without interfering with our free will.

Because, all things created were created through Him! While denying Himself to his right to omniscience, as the Soul of the Son... all things were created! Each soul he created with only one thing in mind. To have an enormous capacity to recognize and love God.

But? Each soul was to be created with its own volition. While creating each soul the Lord in his chosen state of mind, could not know who would reject him.

That is why each soul is to be held accountable before God! For no soul was created to chose for, or against, knowing God.

"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, ​

visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ​

all things have been created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16​

​

Ultimately, all three of the Trinity were involved with the final way the creation came out.. But, without the Soul of God righteously working in His glory, in His magnificent unlimited genius to create? The other two of the Trinity would have nothing to create!

Create with no predetermined outcome in mind at the point of its initial creation in the Mind of the Lord. The Lord who volunteered to make himself to be as a man in his ability to not be omniscient!

Mysteries are given to us to be solved. Solved by God's grace in God's timing.


grace and peace........

 

[armylngst]

And obviously he CHOSE not to intervene to save people from themselves.

No, He did not choose to intervene to those save people from themselves. There is a difference. This is passive. This is letting the status quo be the status quo. Your statement is an attempt to make God evil if Calvinists were to be shown correct.

Utterly ridiculous. OF COURSE you say: "I choose you not to be on the team". You do it with your ACTIONS, that that the other 40 understand completely. Apparently you never played sand-lot baseball as a kid.

Why? They don't even know they are on a list to begin with. You just tell the 10 you chose, and you say nothing to anyone else, because you they were not chosen. I don't see the difficulty in understanding that. Apparently you never played sand-lot baseball as a kid either, or you would understand that that has absolutely NOTHING to do with our discussion. You don't present sand-lot baseball as a kid as an example of unconditional election. (REALLY?!?)

ANd of course God IS NOT ignorant of the other 40. He knows everything about them from before their conception to their grave.

You realize that that means nothing when speaking of unconditional election, correct? Ephesians says God chose because...frankly, He felt like it. Ephesians puts it as "according to the good pleasure of His will". However, apparently in order to get you to begin to comprehend the idea of unconditional, so you can make a rational argument, I gave the example. God did the same thing, without a list, knowing who everyone is. There are a lot of people who have been marked as Christians because they are so great, who were not. God did not choose them, even though it would be a slam dunk as far as fulfilling the Great Commission. God leaves them alone. Very unlike sand-lot baseball. Very unlike. (Considering I have been in that position as a child...different sport...I can say with certainty that I have no idea what you are talking about. (Your argument makes no sense.)

 

[GeneZ]

Why do so many keep on failing to see what we have been chosen for?

It was not for salvation. But, chosen for what we would enter into when we were saved.

" For he chose us in him before the creation of the world ​

to be holy and blameless in his sight." Eph 1:4​

Where was Eve before the Lord put Adam into a deep sleep? She was hidden IN ADAM! To become bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh.

And? We are we (the bride of Christ) now? We are hidden In Him, awaiting to be revealed as bone of his glorious bones and flesh of His glorious flesh! A Resurrection body just like His own!

Keep in mind.. Not all believers that lived throughout history were Chosen by God to be the Bride of Christ! Only those chosen in Him are going to be the Bride in the Resurrection.

Contrary to what some Calvinists will say... God did not choose to save only certain souls. What He did? He chose out from all souls that would live during history? Our from only those whom He knew would believe? Only the Church to be In Christ!

Moses is not going o be the Bride of Christ in his resurrection. Only church age believers (Bride) were chosen In Christ before the creation of the world.

Only we (the Church) have been chosen by God to be the Bride of Christ. Not all will have their eternal home in Heaven. Many will have their eternal home on the New Earth.

God knew before the foundations of the earth that He would have us to be born at this time in history. What he sovereignly chose for our souls? Was to be born at a time that we would enter into being the Bride of Christ when we believed!

God does not choose who will believe. Instead, He chooses what is to become of those whom He knows will believe.

 

[armylngst]

God created people correct? So He acted before they acted, and when they acted, they acted according to the purpose for which He created them for, and to their predetermined end.

I think that is too simplisticly put. There is a lot more to it.

 

[armylngst]

I think Bob made a fair point for those of us (me included) who know what it's like to NOT be chosen on the sand lot.

You can tell me I've been "passed over" but it's all just good marketing and clever phraseology.

God didn't pass over desiring anyone to be saved; he desires all to come to repentance.

Tell that to Esau. God did not pass over opportunities to remind people throughout the millennia that God hated him. (It's recorded in the Bible...to be read by anyone who wants to.)

 

[GeneZ]

Tell that to Esau. God did not pass over opportunities to remind people throughout the millennia that God hated him. (It's recorded in the Bible...to be read by anyone who wants to.)

God simply already knew how Esau would not believe. That is never to indicate that God made Esau to not believe.

 

[brightfame52]

A mystery was exposed and revealed about the Son of God in the Incarnation.

The Son has two natures. One is humanity. The other nature is Deity.

Who, being in very nature God,​

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;​

rather, he made himself nothing​

by taking the very nature of a servant,​

being made in human likeness.​

And being found in appearance as a man,​

he humbled himself​

by becoming obedient to death—​

even death on a cross!​

Philippians 2:6-8 reveals that the Son took his human nature, and denied Himself to his right to simultaneously be manifested as God.
In doing so? He made himself to be as a man!

As a man? He was not omniscient.

That tells us something essential in understanding how God could create us without interfering with our free will.

Because, all things created were created through Him! While denying Himself to his right to omniscience, as the Soul of the Son... all things were created! Each soul he created with only one thing in mind. To have an enormous capacity to recognize and love God.

But? Each soul was to be created with its own volition. While creating each soul the Lord in his chosen state of mind, could not know who would reject him.

That is why each soul is to be held accountable before God! For no soul was created to chose for, or against, knowing God.

"For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, ​

visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ​

all things have been created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16​

​

Ultimately, all three of the Trinity were involved with the final way the creation came out.. But, without the Soul of God righteously working in His glory, in His magnificent unlimited genius to create? The other two of the Trinity would have nothing to create!

Create with no predetermined outcome in mind at the point of its initial creation in the Mind of the Lord. The Lord who volunteered to make himself to be as a man in his ability to not be omniscient!

Mysteries are given to us to be solved. Solved by God's grace in God's timing.


grace and peace........

Friend you went off the deep end. God created some to be vessels of wrath and some vessels of mercy, and thats how things will go according to the will of God. Mans will will do no more or less than the decreed will of God !

 

[brightfame52]

I think that is too simplisticly put. There is a lot more to it.

I disagree, God directs a mans steps Prov 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Jer 10:23

O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

I dont think you understand the totality of the Sovereignty of God over a man since you made that comment. Hopefully He will open up your understanding.