The Mercy of the Lord Endureth Forever - Except for the Billions Burning in Hell for Eternity.

[GeneZ]

Thank you for your answer. Your answer is differently worded than what I am used to, so I'm a bit unsure as to how to read it. I will continue to read it, and maybe I'll understand it a bit better.

I'll try to reword your comments. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your position.

First, I see a contrast being made. The word, "Instead," in the middle is giving this away. I think that the contrast is between God giving a person unlimited choices in a given situation vs God decreeing what a person chooses. Honestly, this kind of contrast sounds odd to me

As long as you understand the following we will be fine with understanding this area of God's will.

God is not choosing their choice. God's decrees cuts to the chase, so to speak. Their choice is still their own. God simply narrows it down as to not waste lots of time. Otherwise, God would have to give ad infinitum choices to every atheist who would keep resisting whatever came his way.

Imagine if God decreed that Pharaoh was not to be born? Because how God knew he would reject Him? God could have decreed that your soul would enter a baby's body in 800 BC. In that case, never to be a part of the body of Christ when you believed. Only those chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world have been decreed to be born and saved during the church age...

Some people wrongfully think if God were in control our lives would go along perfectly and everyone will be happy. God's decrees are determined by His plan. His plan to resolve a prehistoric angelic conflict. Its still in its process. That is why, even though the Perfect Judge has condemned Satan and his angels to the Lake of Fire. A Judge that makes no mistakes? That Satan and his angels are still free to wander the earth and are not yet imprisoned. But.. they already have been judged by the perfect Judge. Its for their sakes God withholds the execution of judgment. For angels and men are slow in grasping God's thinking when they are on the wrong side of spirituality.

Satan demanded an appeal to his sentence. When doing so, Satan impugned the character of God. That left God's angels confused as to what was going on. So, God granted his wish. We are chosen by God to be witnesses in the appeal trial of Satan. The more we remain true to Bible doctrine and walk habitually in the Spirit? The better our witness will be seen as virtuous in God's courtroom.

Man is now on display before angels and men - On display as evidence for being either on the side of righteousness, or for others.. those who are unrighteous. Unrighteous are allowed to try to lie and deceive to the hurt of others as to show why Satan and his angels must be condemned.

That is why God allows and decrees that both good and bad things will happen to men. And, God decrees to limit each man's time on the stand (how he lives his life) as a witness before God and angels....

God has His decrees to keep the process to be done decently and in order. And, timely.

 

[Theo1689]

The Mercy of the Lord Endureth Forever - Except for the Billions Burning in Hell for Eternity.​

They made their choice.

Unless Calvinism is true, and then they HAD NO CHOICE.

Um, Calvinism doesn't teach "they HAD NO CHOICE".

Calvinism teaches that they ALL had a choice, and all those in hell CHOSE their fate.
They weren't dragged kicking and screaming, they jumped in head-first.

 

[Theo1689]

Hey all ya'll.
Brand new here with my first post - thought I'd start off with something light-hearted.

We know Psalm 136 heralds the mercy of the Lord 26 times, yet we have these translations with phrases like Eternal Punishment.
Sounds seriously contradictory to me.
Is there something nefarious afoot?

vad är dina tankar
(what are your thoughts)

I'm not sure I understand the title of your thread.
God's mercy certainly DOES endure forever.
It simply isn't upon those who are perishing.

You seem to be confusing time/duration with scope.

 

[GeneZ]

Um, Calvinism doesn't teach "they HAD NO CHOICE".

Calvinism teaches that they ALL had a choice, and all those in hell CHOSE their fate.
They weren't dragged kicking and screaming, they jumped in head-first.

How is that so? What Scripture justification can you offer? Please...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Um, Calvinism doesn't teach "they HAD NO CHOICE".

Calvinism teaches that they ALL had a choice, and all those in hell CHOSE their fate.
They weren't dragged kicking and screaming, they jumped in head-first.

DUH!!!! Every human being that ever lived (with one exception) had the same choice, and Everyone of them chose to go their own way including you and me.

Calvinism teaches that the "Elect" were chosen "Unconditionally" (Arbitrarily) before creation.

Consequently Nobody had any choice in the matter whatsoever. The Elect WOULD BE SAVED AND PERSEVERE ("I" and "P") and the non elect were born to be firewood - period.

 

[Theo1689]

DUH!!!! Every human being that ever lived (with one exception) had the same choice, and Everyone of them chose to go their own way including you and me.

Calvinism teaches that the "Elect" were chosen "Unconditionally" (Arbitrarily) before creation.

Wrong again.
"Unconditionally" does NOT mean "arbitrarily".

Consequently Nobody had any choice in the matter whatsoever.

Um, you just ADMITTED that they all chose their path.
And Calvinists agree!

You are confusing "choosing" with "determining".
They are not the same thing.

The Elect WOULD BE SAVED AND PERSEVERE ("I" and "P") and the non elect were born to be firewood - period.

Who are you to argue against God?

 

[GeneZ]

Wrong again.
"Unconditionally" does NOT mean "arbitrarily".

Can you try explaining for once?

No one should be shy about what they believe if they have truth and are secure about it.

How does Calvinism conclude as to how who God saves, and who does not?

 

[Theo1689]

Wrong again.
"Unconditionally" does NOT mean "arbitrarily".

Can you try explaining for once?

I usually have you on "ignore", but I'll help you out this one time.

www.dictionary.com
www.m-w.com

(You're welcome.)

 

[GeneZ]

I usually have you on "ignore", but I'll help you out this one time.

www.dictionary.com
www.m-w.com

(You're welcome.)

Not to explain what the words mean. We all know that. Besides, those links were not showing any answer.

Now, please. Explain to us using Scripture the proof to what you claim is truth?

Is that worthy of "Ignore?"

 

[Theo1689]

Now, please. Explain to us using Scripture the proof to what you claim is truth?

If you want to believe what I claim is truth, you are free to do so.
If you don't want to believe what I claim is truth, you are free to do so.

I really don't care what you believe.
So maybe you should take the chip off your shoulder...

Is that worthy of "Ignore?"

Apparently...

 

[GeneZ]

If you want to believe what I claim is truth, you are free to do so.
If you don't want to believe what I claim is truth, you are free to do so.

Truth? Your opinion is Truth?

If that is what Calvinism amounts to? You might as well be a Catholic believing whatever the pope tells you is so.
Its the same mind set. Just a different flavor.

Calvinists get frustrated because what they are told about salvation sits just right with their world view. But,, when it comes time to be objective? And to show another what is needed to see it as they do, using Scripture? They put people on Ignore.

 

[Theo1689]

Truth? Your opinion is Truth?

If that is what Calvinism amounts to? You might as well be a Catholic believing whatever the pope tells you is so.
Its the same mind set. Just a different flavor.

<Chuckle>

Thanks for reminding me why I put you on "ignore"....

Calvinists get frustrated because ....

So now you're a certified mindreader?

Let's see... Anti-Calvinists get frustrated because they can't defend their beliefs from Scripture, so they have to put straw-man arguments in their opponents' mouths so they have something easy to destroy.....

Isn't that chip getting a bit heavy?

 

[GeneZ]

So now you're a certified mindreader?

Let's see... Anti-Calvinists get frustrated because they can't defend their beliefs from Scripture, so they have to put straw-man arguments in their opponents' mouths so they have something easy to destroy.....

Isn't that chip getting a bit heavy?

Not at all.

I once attempted reasoning in a Calvinist Forum designed for Calvinists. All they could do was to get indignant and frustrated when they could not give a good answer for my reasoning. Reasoning that was always justified by Scripture. The effect received was almost like telling certain Catholics that Mary is not the mother of God.

On the believers journey to being made able by grace, to enter into a state of mature worship in Christ; many believers form into denominations by "jumping ship" to settle on their own islands they are sailing by in growing in knowledge. Founding them upon their own terms. Terms that made themselves feel comfortable in their own flesh at that point in growth..

Romans 1:18-23? It shows us that God has drawn all men, even the worst kind of reprobate.. For, it says that He made Himself known to them and they were made by God to know God is real. This type of reprobate rejected the drawing of God. They turned to suppressing what they were made to know is true by burying that truth under lies and deceitful notions. God has drawn all men. Not just those who believe.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who​

suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God​

has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power​

and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are​

without excuse." ​

​

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts. were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."​

​

​

Plainly seen.. That, one can reject the drawing of God. Its not irresistible as some claim.

Grace and peace.....

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If you want to believe what I claim is truth, you are free to do so.
If you don't want to believe what I claim is truth, you are free to do so.

I really don't care what you believe.
So maybe you should take the chip off your shoulder...



Apparently...

So - you HAVE NO EXPLANATION.

SO I'll stick with what I said. No REAL difference between "Unconditional", and "Arbitrary" in practical terms.

 

[Theo1689]

So - you HAVE NO EXPLANATION.

SO I'll stick with what I said. No REAL difference between "Unconditional", and "Arbitrary" in practical terms.

Show us a dictionary that defines "unconditional" as "arbitrary".

The fact that you are UNABLE to do so should speak volumes to you.
It's a pity that it doesn't.

 

[GeneZ]

So - you HAVE NO EXPLANATION.

SO I'll stick with what I said. No REAL difference between "Unconditional", and "Arbitrary" in practical terms.

Its a diversion away from what they most want to avoid being exposed.

The Calvinists concept of God's sovereignty... choosing to create someone knowingly who is going to be tormented in the Lake of Fire for doing what they had no way not to do? Because God made them that way to begin with? Makes God into a sadistic, sovereign monster.

And, add to that? Choosing who to save some on the basis of Divine sovereign whim. For He created all to be going to the Lake of Fire.

God revealed to us something absolutely important in the Incarnation. That if understood correctly? Would explain how God could create all human souls without interfering with their volition in regards to how they would see God. What was revealed? Jesus being the Son of God? Having two natures in union. Had the ability to deny Himself of His omniscience.. and make himself become as a man. It the Soul of Jehovah that is in union with Deity that differentiates between the Father and the Son.

Even before the Incarnation, the Lord God of Israel was manifested as two natures in union! Jehovah, and Soul. In the Incarnation it was a human body of flesh that was introduced. A body prepared for the Soul of God to enter and make himself become as a man!

Here is where we find the revelation that the Lord God of Israel prior to the Incarnation was always having two natures in union.

Keep in mind. Jesus told us that God is "spirit." (John 4:23-24) "Spirit" is one nature. "Soul" is a different nature!

​

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. ​

Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not ​

reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall ​

be My people." Lev 26:10-12



And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve ​

Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel.​

Judges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and ​

anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5



Before the Incarnation (taking on a body) the Lord God of Israel already was with two natures! Deity and Soul!​

 

[Theo1689]

Its a diversion away from what they most want to avoid being exposed.

I simply refuse to engage with bullies, when all they're going to do is ignore anything you say and then become insulting (as you have demonstrated over and over again).

Why am I allegedly so "important" to you, that you need to try to harass me and goad me into having a pointless discussion with you? Don't you have anything better to do with your life?

If you want to learn about about what Calvinism teaches, there are literally THOUSANDS of books you can read. Go to monergism.com. But you don't want to learn about Calvinism, you simply want to insult and put down Calvinists, and you can't argue with books, so you harass people here.

You believe Calvinism is false and unBiblical.
Good for you.
You have a right to your opinion.
And I will fight to the death your right to hold it.

But what I'm NOT going to do is waste my time trying to convince you of a theology you clearly have no interest in believing, only to leave myself open to childish insults.

The Calvinists concept of God's sovereignty... choosing to create someone knowingly who is going to be tormented in the Lake of Fire for doing what they had no way not to do? Because God made them that way to begin with? Makes God into a sadistic, sovereign monster.

Okay, so you believe the Bible teaches that God is "a sadistic, sovereign monster".
Good for you.
You have a right to your opinion.

And, add to that? Choosing who to save some on the basis of Divine sovereign whim. For He created all to be going to the Lake of Fire.

So you don't like Calvinism.
I get it.
Believe what you want.
That's what you don't seem to understand.
I don't CARE what you choose to believe.

So try taking that ugly chip off your shoulder.
I think you'll find yourself happier in the long run.

 

[GeneZ]

I simply refuse to engage with bullies, when all they're going to do is ignore anything you say and then become insulting (as you have demonstrated over and over again).

Why am I allegedly so "important" to you, that you need to try to harass me and goad me into having a pointless discussion with you? Don't you have anything better to do with your life?

If you want to learn about about what Calvinism teaches, there are literally THOUSANDS of books you can read. Go to monergism.com. But you don't want to learn about Calvinism, you simply want to insult and put down Calvinists, and you can't argue with books, so you harass people here.

You believe Calvinism is false and unBiblical.
Good for you.
You have a right to your opinion.
And I will fight to the death your right to hold it.

But what I'm NOT going to do is waste my time trying to convince you of a theology you clearly have no interest in believing, only to leave myself open to childish insults.



Okay, so you believe the Bible teaches that God is "a sadistic, sovereign monster".
Good for you.
You have a right to your opinion.



So you don't like Calvinism.
I get it.
Believe what you want.
That's what you don't seem to understand.
I don't CARE what you choose to believe.

So try taking that ugly chip off your shoulder.
I think you'll find yourself happier in the long run.

Bully? Are you really that timid? I can not see you to know who you really are. Are you a shy and reserved person?

Apologetics is not for the timid. Its why its called "fighting the good fight."

You did not like being told that a god who creates someone with intent to be tormented is sadistic? You should! It shows a weakness and inconsistency of some of Calvinism.

And, Calvin did not devise TULIP as we now are shown it to be. A disciple of his, Theodore Beza, was later attributed to having created that concept.

Calvin was an exegetical genius. I am not against Calvin. I am against what some men have slapped his name upon.

 

[Theo1689]

Bully?

Yes.
You refuse to accept "no" as an answer.
You want to try to FORCE someone to get into an argument with you.

"NO" means "NO".

Do you understand that?

"NO" means "NO".

Are you really that timid? I can not see you to know who you really are. Are you a shy and reserved person?

<sigh>
And here come the insults again....

Apologetics is not for the timid. Its why its called "fighting the good fight."

I don't think you know the definition of "apologetics".

1Pet. 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

You did not like being told that a god who creates someone with intent to be tormented is sadistic? You should!

I should like it when God haters make false accusations against God?!
I don't think so.

It shows a weakness and inconsistency of some of Calvinism.

Since your accusation isn't true, it doesn't "show" anything of the sort.

And, Calvin did not devise TULIP as we now are shown it to be. A disciple of his, Theodore Beza, was later attributed to having created that concept.

I'm familiar with the history, thank-you-very-much.

But it's all irrelevant, since we get our theology from the BIBLE, not from "Calvin" or "Beza".

Calvin was an exegetical genius. I am not against Calvin.

Yes, I'm aware of that, thank-you-very-much.

I am against what some men have slapped his name upon.

I guess you missed the part where I didn't ask for your opinion.

 

[GeneZ]

I don't think you know the definition of "apologetics".

1Pet. 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Context is needed for that one.


That verse does not apply to apologetics amongst believers. It applies to evangelism of the unbeliever who is resisting the Gospel. Its not about having to refute false teaching.

Well? You are already a believer.

But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense ​

to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness ​

and respect." 1Pet. 3:15 ​

Do you really need to know why I have hope? No, you do not...


Apologetics is what got Paul stoned and beaten at times. Its what got Stephen martyred. For, no one could refute Stephen.

And, apologetics is what got Jesus crucified!


Confronting false teaching is not simply a matter of confronting what is taught. Its also needing to endure the mentality that has an affinity for such false teaching. Its not pleasant for me to endure.


If what you claim about Calvinism were true? You should be correcting and teaching us misinformed believers, if TULIP as we see it is not what Calvinists promote. Instead? You only can say I am entitled to my opinion. That leaves the other person hanging with nothing to think with, to even repent if need be.

And, I thought it would be helpful to know if you are a naturally shy person. Its not an insult. In real life I could see you and know instantly. But, here we sometimes need to weed through the tall grass to find a path way. Timothy was shy. God used him mightily.

grace and peace.....