The Messiah and the 3 days and 3 nights timeframe of Matthew 12:40?

What would be more "Hebrew" Than a Sabbath resurrection?
Matt 28:1,2 plainly infers that the resurrection was after the Sabbath. I have not got the least idea why the resurrection should under Hebrew law have occurred on a Sabbath.
 
KJV [Matthew 28:1-2] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

The above is what was rendered by King James and the Church of England.....shortly removed from the tentacles of Catholicism. Unfortunately, Martin Luther, being the anti-semetic he was......agreed with his previous church that absolutely nothing good could come of honoring Yahweh's Sabbaths in any form whatsoever. So.....he bought into the Sunday Fairy tale which has no biblical backing whatsoever........ if you check the Greek language.....that is.

The other gospels were rendered the same by the obedient translators.

[Mark 16:2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

[Luke 24:1] Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

[John 20:1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

I have highlighted the addition to scripture in the form of day. It does not exist in the original manuscripts and was added by Catholic translators to embolden their case for a Sunday resurrection. If you check your KJV you'll see that it is italicized for that reason.

Robert Young was the most important Hebrew/Greek scholar of the 19th century and published some very concise works....among which is Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible.....found in any major library, secular or religious. He also published the Hebrew/Greek Literal Language bible.....considered his foremost literal work.

YLT/LIteral Hebrew [Leviticus 23:15-16]`And ye have numbered to you from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day of your bringing in the sheaf of the wave-offering: they are seven perfect sabbaths, unto the morrow of the seventh sabbath ye do number fifty days, and ye have brought near a new present to Jehovah;

The above passage is in relation to verse 5: in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, [is] the passover to Jehovah;

After Passover the Count of the Omer requires numbering and observing each weekly Sabbath in the march to Shavuot (Pentecost/The giving of the Law).....first Sabbath, second Sabbath, third Sabbath etc.

YLT [Matthew 28:1-2] And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,
YLT [Mark 16:2] and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,
YLT [Luke 24:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,
YLT [John 20:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

Now you must ask yourself.............why didn't the Greek use the word EBDOMADOS (which means week in Greek) instead of Sabbaths? When you realize the lengths the early Catholic Church was willing to go to to besmirch anything that smacked of Hebraisms of any sort......you wonder.

Here is Jerome's Vulgate for [Matthew 28:1] vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in "primam sabbati" venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum

Jerome wrote his "Vulgate" (4th century A.D.) before the Catholic Church changed the words to reflect a "Sunday" morning affair. Do you see the actual Latin words for "First Sabbath"? The "First Day of the Week" entered the Lexicon because of Catholicisms desire to honor their Sun god......and for no other reason. Foolish Protestants should by now......know better. Your Savior resurrected on the first Sabbath after Passover in the 50 day count to Pentecost and the tomb was empty when the women visited at Sabbath daybreak.
 
KJV [Matthew 28:1-2] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

The above is what was rendered by King James and the Church of England.....shortly removed from the tentacles of Catholicism. Unfortunately, Martin Luther, being the anti-semetic he was......agreed with his previous church that absolutely nothing good could come of honoring Yahweh's Sabbaths in any form whatsoever. So.....he bought into the Sunday Fairy tale which has no biblical backing whatsoever........ if you check the Greek language.....that is.
It seems that by those times, the Hebrew way of reckoning days had become displaced by a Roman way of reckoning days: i,.e. from sunrise to sunrise. Moreover the Word "sabbath" in the Greek is plural, but is rendered by KJV as singular to sustain an incorrect translation.

Although there are commentators who insist that οψε must include the period specified, the period specified is not nearly as definitive as you make it out to be. It could mean the whole of the preceeding week because sabbath is plural - a week reckoned from sunrise to sunrise.

Moreover these commentators are not necessarily correct. The genitive could be one of comparison, to infer "after the Sabbath,"


An Benson says:

Benson.
Matthew 28:1. In the end of the sabbath — Or rather, After the sabbath, as οψε σαββατων may be properly translated. Thus, in Philostratus, οψε των Τρωικων signifies, after the Trojan war; οψε μυστηριων, after the mysteries were ended. And in other authors, οψε τουτων is, after these things; οψε νυκτος, after night; see many examples of this in Stephanus. And so this perfectly agrees with the other evangelists, who say what is here related was done when the sabbath was ended, Mark 16:1; or the first day of the week, Luke 24:1; John 20:1. And perhaps Matthew here mentions σαββατων, sabbaths, in the plural, because there were two sabbaths in that week, the paschal sabbath on Friday, and the ordinary sabbath on Saturday.​

Moreover "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" is not "late on the Sabbath" per the Jewish recknoning, and so your rendition presents an anachronism (see below).


The other gospels were rendered the same by the obedient translators.

[Mark 16:2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

[Luke 24:1] Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

[John 20:1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

I have highlighted the addition to scripture in the form of day. It does not exist in the original manuscripts and was added by Catholic translators to embolden their case for a Sunday resurrection. If you check your KJV you'll see that it is italicized for that reason.

Robert Young was the most important Hebrew/Greek scholar of the 19th century and published some very concise works....among which is Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible.....found in any major library, secular or religious. He also published the Hebrew/Greek Literal Language bible.....considered his foremost literal work.

YLT/LIteral Hebrew [Leviticus 23:15-16]`And ye have numbered to you from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day of your bringing in the sheaf of the wave-offering: they are seven perfect sabbaths, unto the morrow of the seventh sabbath ye do number fifty days, and ye have brought near a new present to Jehovah;

The above passage is in relation to verse 5: in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, [is] the passover to Jehovah;

After Passover the Count of the Omer requires numbering and observing each weekly Sabbath in the march to Shavuot (Pentecost/The giving of the Law).....first Sabbath, second Sabbath, third Sabbath etc.

YLT [Matthew 28:1-2] And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,
YLT [Mark 16:2] and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,
YLT [Luke 24:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,
YLT [John 20:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

Now you must ask yourself.............why didn't the Greek use the word EBDOMADOS (which means week in Greek) instead of Sabbaths? When you realize the lengths the early Catholic Church was willing to go to to besmirch anything that smacked of Hebraisms of any sort......you wonder.

Here is Jerome's Vulgate for [Matthew 28:1] vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in "primam sabbati" venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum

Jerome wrote his "Vulgate" (4th century A.D.) before the Catholic Church changed the words to reflect a "Sunday" morning affair. Do you see the actual Latin words for "First Sabbath"? The "First Day of the Week" entered the Lexicon because of Catholicisms desire to honor their Sun god......and for no other reason. Foolish Protestants should by now......know better. Your Savior resurrected on the first Sabbath after Passover in the 50 day count to Pentecost and the tomb was empty when the women visited at Sabbath daybreak.
Latin is irrelevant.

μίαν σαβ. is a Hebraism; the Rabbinical writings use אהד, שני, שלישי, &c., affixing בשבת to each, for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, &c (Alford)

Benson
Τη επιφωσκουση εις μιαν σαββατων, when it began to dawn into the first day of the week, that is, Sunday, or the Lord’s day; for μια των σαββατων always signifies the first day of the week, or the Lord’s day, or the day of his resurrection from the dead: and thus the word μια usually signifies in the Septuagint, when it is joined with days, weeks, or months; as Genesis 1:5, The evening and morning were, ημερα μια, the first day: Exodus 40:2; Ezra 3:6; Ezra 10:17, ημερα μια του μηνος, is the first day of the month. See note on 1 Corinthians 16:2. On this day, in the evening, Christ appeared to the eleven, John 20:19; and again, John 20:26; and to the two disciples, Luke 24:13.

Meyer
The expression ΜΊΑ ΣΑΒΒΆΤΩΝ corresponds exactly to the Rabbinical mode of designating the days of the week: אחד בשבת, Sunday; שני בשבת, Monday; שלישי בשבת, Tuesday, and so on. See Lightfoot, p. 500. Observe that ΣΆΒΒΑΤΑ denotes, in the first instance, Sabbath, and then week; and similarly, that the ἩΜΈΡᾼ to be understood with ἘΠΟΦΩΣΚ. is to be taken in the sense of day light (John 4:4; John 11:9; Romans 8:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:5).
 
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It seems that by those times, the Hebrew way of reckoning days had become displaced by a Roman way of reckoning days: i,.e. from sunrise to sunrise. Moreover the Word "sabbath" in the Greek is plural, but is rendered by KJV as singular to sustain an incorrect translation.

Although there are commentators who insist that οψε must include the period specified, the period specified is not nearly as definitive as you make it out to be. It could mean the whole of the preceeding week because sabbath is plural - a week reckoned from sunrise to sunrise.

Moreover these commentators are not necessarily correct. The genitive could be one of comparison, to infer "after the Sabbath,"


An Benson says:

Benson.
Matthew 28:1. In the end of the sabbath — Or rather, After the sabbath, as οψε σαββατων may be properly translated. Thus, in Philostratus, οψε των Τρωικων signifies, after the Trojan war; οψε μυστηριων, after the mysteries were ended. And in other authors, οψε τουτων is, after these things; οψε νυκτος, after night; see many examples of this in Stephanus. And so this perfectly agrees with the other evangelists, who say what is here related was done when the sabbath was ended, Mark 16:1; or the first day of the week, Luke 24:1; John 20:1. And perhaps Matthew here mentions σαββατων, sabbaths, in the plural, because there were two sabbaths in that week, the paschal sabbath on Friday, and the ordinary sabbath on Saturday.​

Moreover "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" is not "late on the Sabbath" per the Jewish recknoning, and so your rendition presents an anachronism (see below).



Latin is irrelevant.

μίαν σαβ. is a Hebraism; the Rabbinical writings use אהד, שני, שלישי, &c., affixing בשבת to each, for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, &c (Alford)

Benson
Τη επιφωσκουση εις μιαν σαββατων, when it began to dawn into the first day of the week, that is, Sunday, or the Lord’s day; for μια των σαββατων always signifies the first day of the week, or the Lord’s day, or the day of his resurrection from the dead: and thus the word μια usually signifies in the Septuagint, when it is joined with days, weeks, or months; as Genesis 1:5, The evening and morning were, ημερα μια, the first day: Exodus 40:2; Ezra 3:6; Ezra 10:17, ημερα μια του μηνος, is the first day of the month. See note on 1 Corinthians 16:2. On this day, in the evening, Christ appeared to the eleven, John 20:19; and again, John 20:26; and to the two disciples, Luke 24:13.

Meyer
The expression ΜΊΑ ΣΑΒΒΆΤΩΝ corresponds exactly to the Rabbinical mode of designating the days of the week: אחד בשבת, Sunday; שני בשבת, Monday; שלישי בשבת, Tuesday, and so on. See Lightfoot, p. 500. Observe that ΣΆΒΒΑΤΑ denotes, in the first instance, Sabbath, and then week; and similarly, that the ἩΜΈΡᾼ to be understood with ἘΠΟΦΩΣΚ. is to be taken in the sense of day light (John 4:4; John 11:9; Romans 8:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:5).
I see you wish to stay with the Catholic version. That's O.K.

May Yahweh bless your home.....and all within.
 
I see you wish to stay with the Catholic version. That's O.K.

May Yahweh bless your home.....and all within.
I don't think there were any "sun worshipping" "Catholics" in the days of Jerome. Whatever Constantine's failings, he exerted little influence on Christianity to my knowledge except through the Nicene Creed and its "consubstantial" vocabulary. All he did was make Sunday the official day of rest throughout the Empire.

The pagan / easter traditions of the popes came a little later. The Modern Greek word for Sunday, Κυριακή, is derived from Κύριος (Kyrios, Lord) also, due to its liturgical significance as the day commemorating the resurrection of Jesus Christ, i.e. The Lord's Day. The NT Christians also met on the first day of the week 1 Corinthians 16:2, etc - so not really anything to find fault with there.

The Greek Σάββατο means "week" by synecdoche (Luk 18:12) and I assume the Roman word Sabbatum also. Prima is probably short for Prima dies. εἷς = μία in Greek, similarly.

See further discussion here.
 
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The Greek Σάββατο means "week" by synecdoche (Luk 18:12) and I assume the Roman word Sabbatum also. Prima is probably short for Prima dies. εἷς = μία in Greek, similarly.
The Roman/Latin names for the days of the week (starting with Saturday) were.......... diēs Saturnī, diēs Sōlis, diēs Lūnae, diēs Martis, diēs Mercuriī, diēs Jovis, diēs Veneris.

Day of the sun is obviously dies Solis. It was also referred to as "Dominica".

Sunday morning resurrection in Latin translation is:
Dominica mane resurrectionis

The Roman/Latin "root" name for Sabbath was sabbatum and the translation for Sabbath morning resurrection is Sabbato mane resurrectio.

From the Vulgate: vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum

English Translation: And in the evening of the Sabbath, which dawns on the first Sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come to see the sepulchre

This would describe Friday at sunset (evening of the Sabbath) dawning to the first Sabbath in the Count of the Omer.

Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover.

You are more than welcome to continue believing the complete nonsense of a Sunday Morning resurrection. The evidence for a Sabbath resurrection is obvious and nothing stands in your way except tradition.
 
The Roman/Latin names for the days of the week (starting with Saturday) were.......... diēs Saturnī, diēs Sōlis, diēs Lūnae, diēs Martis, diēs Mercuriī, diēs Jovis, diēs Veneris.

Day of the sun is obviously dies Solis. It was also referred to as "Dominica".

Sunday morning resurrection in Latin translation is:
Dominica mane resurrectionis

The Roman/Latin "root" name for Sabbath was sabbatum and the translation for Sabbath morning resurrection is Sabbato mane resurrectio.

From the Vulgate: vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum

English Translation: And in the evening of the Sabbath, which dawns on the first Sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary come to see the sepulchre

This would describe Friday at sunset (evening of the Sabbath) dawning to the first Sabbath in the Count of the Omer.

Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover.
First, the problems with the Latin have concerned many people. The Latin has been seen as ambiguous from the days of Augustine. However, what you have written of the second use of "Sabbath," i.e. "which dawns on the first Sabbath" (which I concur is the literal but unintelligent translation) has been accepted for a very long time as not the correct translation of the Vulgate, for which see the Douay Rheims translation: "when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre. "

Writing in the 5th century, the Bishop of Ravenna "wrote that the reference to dawn is to the renewal of Sabbath on its new day: Matthew 14-28 - Ancient Christian commentary on Scripture: New Testament. ed. Manlio Simonetti. InterVarsity Press, 2002.

In these days, we have the Nova Vulgata, which has retranslated the Latin of the first part of Matt 28:1 "Sero autem post sabbatum, cum illucesceret in primam sabbati, venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulcrum."

i.e. "But late after the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre."

You are more than welcome to continue believing the complete nonsense of a Sunday Morning resurrection. The evidence for a Sabbath resurrection is obvious and nothing stands in your way except tradition.
When you use words like "complete nonsense" it is plain you are promulating a gnostic theory. Because the other gospels of course don't agree with you. And the translation of the Greek of Matt 28:1 is perfectly reconcilable with those other gospels e.g. Mk 16:1.
 
First, the problems with the Latin have concerned many people.
First, the problems with Catholic opinion have concerned many folks......as well.
The Latin has been seen as ambiguous from the days of Augustine.
St. Jerome was a Historian and regarded as the most learned of the Latin Fathers, Secretary to Pope Damasus I, and considered a Doctor of the Church.

To question his translation into Latin as ambiguous seems quite strange............as if there were another reason.

From The Vulgate: [Mark 16:2] et valde mane una sabbatorum veniunt ad monumentum orto iam sole
[Luke 24:1] una autem sabbati valde diluculo venerunt ad monumentum portantes quae paraverant aromata
[John 20:1] una autem sabbati Maria Magdalene venit mane cum adhuc tenebrae essent ad monumentum et videt lapidem sublatum a monumento
You have already seen his translation of [Matthew 28:1] so......would it not seem strange that a learned Roman Catholic translator would reference the resurrection by using the Latin term for Sabbath in the other gospels?
However, what you have written of the second use of "Sabbath," i.e. "which dawns on the first Sabbath" (which I concur is the literal but unintelligent translation) has been accepted for a very long time as not the correct translation of the Vulgate, for which see the Douay Rheims translation: "when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre. "
The Douay/Rheims was published in 1582......more than 1000 years after Catholic dogma was rearranged to show a Sunday resurrection to honor their Roman Sun god. Would you expect any other explanation from them?

The Bishop of Ravenna took his Catholic office in 546 A.D. and again..... after the Church had rearranged the gospel interpretation. What would you expect?

I use the word, Complete nonsense.....as that is what it is.

More proof?

Douay/Rheims [Acts 20:7] And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.
This is simply to justify their stance regarding the "Day of the Sun, Sol Invictus".

Latin Vulgate [Acts 20:7] in una autem sabbati cum convenissemus ad frangendum panem Paulus disputabat eis profecturus in crastinum protraxitque sermonem usque in mediam noctem

English Translation...............and on one of the Sabbaths, when we had come together to break bread, Paul discussed with them that he was going to leave on the morrow, and he continued the conversation until midnight

Jerome knew the Latin and translated correctly, again pointing out the Sabbath observance and to question his scholarship is just looking for excuses.

The Greek words........."First day of the week" do not appear in any manuscript. They all say........."First of the Sabbaths (plural) [Leviticus 23:15-16].
 
First, the problems with Catholic opinion have concerned many folks......as well.
I don't know why you're so concerned about Catholics. I don't normally defer to Latin. That was your idea. There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference of opinion between the Greek commentators as to the meaning of Matt 28:1.

St. Jerome was a Historian and regarded as the most learned of the Latin Fathers, Secretary to Pope Damasus I, and considered a Doctor of the Church.
Numerous changes have been made to his Latin translation by the Nova Vulgata. No man can be treated as infallible.

In the case of the New Testament, Jerome in 382 only corrected the existing Latin-language version of the New Testament, commonly referred to as the Vetus Latina. That is, he did not translate it afresh. Let see what the Vetus Latina says:

From Codex Versonensius "Vespere autem Sabbati, quae lucescit in prima sabbati: venit Maria Magdalene, et altera Maria, videre sepulchrum."

Which is the same as Jerome's. So all we can conclude is that Jerome did no revision here.

To question his translation into Latin as ambiguous seems quite strange............as if there were another reason.
Why do you suppose that the modern world is less equipped to translate the scriptures from the original tongues than Jerome? Do we lack Greek manuscripts or resources? Aren't the accumulated resources of 2000 years available to modern linguistic scholars greater than to Jerome?

From The Vulgate: [Mark 16:2] et valde mane una sabbatorum veniunt ad monumentum orto iam sole
[Luke 24:1] una autem sabbati valde diluculo venerunt ad monumentum portantes quae paraverant aromata
[John 20:1] una autem sabbati Maria Magdalene venit mane cum adhuc tenebrae essent ad monumentum et videt lapidem sublatum a monumento
You have already seen his translation of [Matthew 28:1] so......would it not seem strange that a learned Roman Catholic translator would reference the resurrection by using the Latin term for Sabbath in the other gospels?
There is no disagreement amongst the Greek scholars as to what the Greek infers (first day of the week). The Latin is probably an over literal translation of the Greek.

The Douay/Rheims was published in 1582......more than 1000 years after Catholic dogma was rearranged to show a Sunday resurrection to honor their Roman Sun god. Would you expect any other explanation from them?
I don't accept your Roman Sun God idea.

The Bishop of Ravenna took his Catholic office in 546 A.D. and again..... after the Church had rearranged the gospel interpretation. What would you expect?

I use the word, Complete nonsense.....as that is what it is.

More proof?

Douay/Rheims [Acts 20:7] And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.
This is simply to justify their stance regarding the "Day of the Sun, Sol Invictus".

Latin Vulgate [Acts 20:7] in una autem sabbati cum convenissemus ad frangendum panem Paulus disputabat eis profecturus in crastinum protraxitque sermonem usque in mediam noctem

English Translation...............and on one of the Sabbaths, when we had come together to break bread, Paul discussed with them that he was going to leave on the morrow, and he continued the conversation until midnight

Jerome knew the Latin and translated correctly, again pointing out the Sabbath observance and to question his scholarship is just looking for excuses.

The Greek words........."First day of the week" do not appear in any manuscript. They all say........."First of the Sabbaths (plural) [Leviticus 23:15-16].
1Co 16:2 "per unam sabbati unusquisque vestrum apud se ponat recondens quod ei beneplacuerit ut non cum venero tunc collectae fiant."
"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Luk 18:12 "ieiuno bis in sabbato decimas do omnium quae possideo"
"I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."

It seems to me that Sabbatum was ALSO used to mean week in the time of Christ, in an analogous way to the Greek - possibly this meaning is restricted to the biblical context in consideration of its derivation from Hebrew.
 
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Something is haywire. I am unable to respond to your post. I'll attempt to find the problem.

Hawkeye
 
I don't know why you're so concerned about Catholics. I don't normally defer to Latin. That was your idea. There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference of opinion between the Greek commentators as to the meaning of Matt 28:1.


Numerous changes have been made to his Latin translation by the Nova Vulgata. No man can be treated as infallible.

In the case of the New Testament, Jerome in 382 only corrected the existing Latin-language version of the New Testament, commonly referred to as the Vetus Latina. That is, he did not translate it afresh. Let see what the Vetus Latina says:

From Codex Versonensius "Vespere autem Sabbati, quae lucescit in prima sabbati: venit Maria Magdalene, et altera Maria, videre sepulchrum."

Which is the same as Jerome's. So all we can conclude is that Jerome did no revision here.


Why do you suppose that the modern world is less equipped to translate the scriptures from the original tongues than Jerome? Do we lack Greek manuscripts or resources? Aren't the accumulated resources of 2000 years available to modern linguistic scholars greater than to Jerome?


There is no disagreement amongst the Greek scholars as to what the Greek infers (first day of the week). The Latin is probably an over literal translation of the Greek.


I don't accept your Roman Sun God idea.


1Co 16:2 "per unam sabbati unusquisque vestrum apud se ponat recondens quod ei beneplacuerit ut non cum venero tunc collectae fiant."
"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Luk 18:12 "ieiuno bis in sabbato decimas do omnium quae possideo"
"I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."

It seems to me that Sabbatum was ALSO used to mean week in the time of Christ, in an analogous way to the Greek - possibly this meaning is restricted to the biblical context in consideration of its derivation from Hebrew.
Testing........
 
I don't know why you're so concerned about Catholics. I don't normally defer to Latin. That was your idea. There doesn't appear to be a lot of difference of opinion between the Greek commentators as to the meaning of Matt 28:1.
I'm not concerned about Catholics at all. I only brought Jerome to the table as his Vulgate is considered one of the earliest translations from Greek.......and I wanted to show the thinking of the Latin Church at that time.
Numerous changes have been made to his Latin translation by the Nova Vulgata. No man can be treated as infallible.
This is true.....but what else would you expect a 1979 (revised 1986) rendition would produce. Something other than current Catholic doctrine? It is now considered the official Latin text bible of the Catholic Church.

The original by Jerome was considered the official Latin text bible by the Council of Trent (1545). It, of course...... followed the original Greek. The "Nova" does not.
In the case of the New Testament, Jerome in 382 only corrected the existing Latin-language version of the New Testament, commonly referred to as the Vetus Latina. That is, he did not translate it afresh. Let see what the Vetus Latina says:

From Codex Versonensius

Which is the same as Jerome's. So all we can conclude is that Jerome did no revision here.
English translation:
"And on the eve of the Sabbath, which dawns on the first Sabbath: Mary Magdalene came, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre."
Eve of the Sabbath would be Friday at sundown and First Sabbath would be the first Sabbath in the count of the Omer [Leviticus 23:15-16].

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Why do you suppose that the modern world is less equipped to translate the scriptures from the original tongues than Jerome? Do we lack Greek manuscripts or resources? Aren't the accumulated resources of 2000 years available to modern linguistic scholars greater than to Jerome?
I'm certain that modern translators are very equipped to translate accurately........but...... if you have been taught from childhood a certain tale by folks whom you admire and respect.....you may tweak the story from time to time to insure their version remains intact.
There is no disagreement amongst the Greek scholars as to what the Greek infers (first day of the week). The Latin is probably an over literal translation of the Greek.
Where in the world did you come up with that? There is major disagreement among scholars as evidenced by the several excellent literal translations that are currently available.
I don't accept your Roman Sun God idea.
That's O.K. Many others do but you have a right to your opinion......
1Co 16:2 "per unam sabbati unusquisque vestrum apud se ponat recondens quod ei beneplacuerit ut non cum venero tunc collectae fiant."
"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
English translation: "For one sabbath let each one of you store with himself what pleases him, so that when I come they will not be collected."
Luk 18:12 "ieiuno bis in sabbato decimas do omnium quae possideo"

It seems to me that Sabbatum was ALSO used to mean week in the time of Christ, in an analogous way to the Greek - possibly this meaning is restricted to the biblical context in consideration of its derivation from Hebrew.
English translation: "I fast twice on the Sabbath and give tithes of all that I possess"
 
English translation: "For one sabbath let each one of you store with himself what pleases him, so that when I come they will not be collected."

English translation: "I fast twice on the Sabbath and give tithes of all that I possess"
These absurd renditions should tell you that my point is valid: the Latins just translated the Greek word for word without caring much about the sense, which was ostensibly meaningless unless Sabbatum was given the meaning of "week" as in the Greek, as in the Hebrew.
 
Here is the Koine literal translation for "First day of the week".

Πρώτη ημέρα της εβδομάδας (Ebdomados)

You find this no where in the Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament.

Instead you find this:

[Matthew 28:1] Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων, ἦλθε Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.

English: And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

[Mark 16:2] καὶ λίαν πρωῒ τῆς μιᾶς σαββάτων ἔρχονται ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον, ἀνατείλαντος τοῦ ἡλίου.

English: and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

[Luke 24:1] Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων ὄρθρου βαθέος ἦλθον ἐπὶ τὸ μνῆμα φέρουσαι ἃ ἡτοίμασαν ἀρώματα, καί τινες σὺν αὐταῖς.

English: And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,

[John 20:1] Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ ἔρχεται πρωῒ σκοτίας ἔτι οὔσης εἰς τὸ μνημεῖον, καὶ βλέπει τὸν λίθον ἠρμένον ἐκ τοῦ μνημείου.

English: And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

The reason Ebdomados (week) is not used was because the resurrection occurred on the Sabbath. You can continue to believe the Catholic lie. It's very obvious you have been taught this nonsense from childhood. It's not your fault but I would recommend you think long and hard about this as you are being deceived.

The Master, Himself warned of this.

[Matthew 24:4-5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Which doctrine of the church do you think the "Many" are being deceived about? The chronology of the Resurrection and Sunday displacing the Sabbath. Of course!
 
The reason Ebdomados (week) is not used was because the resurrection occurred on the Sabbath. You can continue to believe the Catholic lie. It's very obvious you have been taught this nonsense from childhood. It's not your fault but I would recommend you think long and hard about this as you are being deceived.
If what you say is true, you have exactly the same problem with 1Co 16:2 and Luk 18:12 in the Greek, as in the Latin. Both verses would be unintelligible if the word σάββατον meant anything other than "week" in the context of these verses.

I am quite able to change my views. I am already leaning towards a Thursday crucifixion day, but I find a Saturday resurrection day to be highly implausible because it is not evidence driven, but doctrinallymotivated by some obscure a priori desire to make the Sabbath the crucifixion day,

Your desire however does not correspond with the practices of the early church, as recorded even in the bible itself, e.g. Acts 20:7 Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων = "on the first day of the week (they came together to break bread)" which you consistently fail to allude to, and which rubbishes your claim that
The reason Ebdomados (week) is not used was because the resurrection occurred on the Sabbath
which appears to be balderdash in the biblical context, which likely adopted the Hebrew way of speaking, because Christianity originated with the Jews (after all). What you say about Ebdomados may be true in a pagan context. When it comes to biblical interpretation, you need to start citing authorities over and above yourself, because otherwise you get squashed very quickly by the weight of scholarship.
 
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If what you say is true, you have exactly the same problem with 1Co 16:2 and Luk 18:12 in the Greek, as in the Latin. Both verses would be unintelligible if the word σάββατον meant anything other than "week" in the context of these verses.
See below.....
I am quite able to change my views. I am already leaning towards a Thursday crucifixion day, but I find a Saturday resurrection day to be highly implausible because it is not evidence driven, but doctrinally motivated by some obscure a priori desire to make the Sabbath the crucifixion day,
That's good. I have been wrong in the past and after much study (prompted by someone I looked up to) I began to realize that just maybe......tradition could be in error.

When you discover that the ancient languages specifically call the resurrection day the "First of the Sabbaths" and are informed as to what that means......it's difficult to blame the misunderstanding on doctrine.
Your desire however does not correspond with the practices of the early church, as recorded even in the bible itself, e.g. Acts 20:7 Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων = "on the first day of the week (they came together to break bread)" which you consistently fail to allude to, and which rubbishes your claim that

From my app: Jerome"s Latin Vulgate [Acts 20:7] Una autem sabbati cum convenissemus ad frangendum panem, Paulus disputabat cum eis profecturus in crastinum, protraxitque sermonem usque in medium noctem.

English Translation: And on one of the Sabbaths, when we had met to break bread, Paul argued with them about going out on the morrow, and the conversation dragged on until midnight.

You must ask yourself......just why would Jerome (in the 4th century) translate the Greek passage as "one of the Sabbaths" if it indeed were Sunday? Sunday had a different name....die Solis or Dominica.

Greek: ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων συνηγμένων τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ κλάσαι ἄρτον ὁ παῦλος διελέγετο αὐτοῖς μέλλων ἐξιέναι τῇ ἐπαύριον παρέτεινέν τε τὸν λόγον μέχρι μεσονυκτίου

English Translation from my app: But on one of the Sabbaths, when the disciples gathered to break bread, Paul was elected to them, and the next day he continued his speech until midnight.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate [Luke 18:12] jejuno bis in sabbato, decimas do omnium quae possideo.

English Translation: I fast twice on the Sabbath, I give tenths of all that I possess.

Greek from my app: [Luke 18:12] νηστεύω δὶς τοῦ σαββάτου, ἀποδεκατῶ πάντα ὅσα κτῶμαι.

English translation: I fast on the Sabbath, I tithe everything I own.
which appears to be balderdash in the biblical context, which likely adopted the Hebrew way of speaking, because Christianity originated with the Jews (after all). What you say about Ebdomados may be true in a pagan context. When it comes to biblical interpretation, you need to start citing authorities over and above yourself, because otherwise you get squashed very quickly by the weight of scholarship.
When it comes to most Biblical Scholarship I understand that their need to continue the tradition outweighs their devotion to accuracy. On the other hand.....the scholarship that I follow was not weighted down by false tradition but by accuracy. Tradition was basically ignored (it must be obvious). The modern knowledge of the ancient biblical languages has greatly improved over the scholarship that came out of the "Dark Ages", and was affected by the doctrines of the Catholic Church.
 
See below.....

That's good. I have been wrong in the past and after much study (prompted by someone I looked up to) I began to realize that just maybe......tradition could be in error.

When you discover that the ancient languages specifically call the resurrection day the "First of the Sabbaths" and are informed as to what that means......it's difficult to blame the misunderstanding on doctrine.

From my app: Jerome"s Latin Vulgate [Acts 20:7] Una autem sabbati cum convenissemus ad frangendum panem, Paulus disputabat cum eis profecturus in crastinum, protraxitque sermonem usque in medium noctem.

English Translation: And on one of the Sabbaths, when we had met to break bread, Paul argued with them about going out on the morrow, and the conversation dragged on until midnight.
You have yet to assert any authority for your "English translation."

"Una autem sabbati" is so hallowed by tradition that it will never be changed. Yet so is the English translation "On the first day of the Week."

You are merely seeking to introduce a spurious English translation to support some silly theory that has no provenance, to make yourself look clever.

You must ask yourself......just why would Jerome (in the 4th century) translate the Greek passage as "one of the Sabbaths" if it indeed were Sunday? Sunday had a different name....die Solis or Dominica.

Greek: ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων συνηγμένων τῶν μαθητῶν τοῦ κλάσαι ἄρτον ὁ παῦλος διελέγετο αὐτοῖς μέλλων ἐξιέναι τῇ ἐπαύριον παρέτεινέν τε τὸν λόγον μέχρι μεσονυκτίου

English Translation from my app: But on one of the Sabbaths, when the disciples gathered to break bread, Paul was elected to them, and the next day he continued his speech until midnight.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate [Luke 18:12] jejuno bis in sabbato, decimas do omnium quae possideo.

English Translation: I fast twice on the Sabbath, I give tenths of all that I possess.

Greek from my app: [Luke 18:12] νηστεύω δὶς τοῦ σαββάτου, ἀποδεκατῶ πάντα ὅσα κτῶμαι.

English translation: I fast on the Sabbath, I tithe everything I own.
This is old hat. I've already dealt with it, and I've also pointed out that the Jerome's NT is largely based on the Vetus Latina anyway, so that there was a reluctance to change things hallowed by tradition. Its imitation of the Greek was reason enough to leave Matt 28:1 unchanged.

When it comes to most Biblical Scholarship I understand that their need to continue the tradition outweighs their devotion to accuracy.
That much is tripe. Even the Nova Vulgata has dispensed with that verse hallowed by tradition, 1 John 5:7, the "Johannine Comma".

On the other hand.....the scholarship that I follow was not weighted down by false tradition but by accuracy. Tradition was basically ignored (it must be obvious). The modern knowledge of the ancient biblical languages has greatly improved over the scholarship that came out of the "Dark Ages", and was affected by the doctrines of the Catholic Church.
No one had any idea what scholarship you follow. You've yet to reveal it.
 
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You have yet to assert any authority for your "English translation."
There is much. Google is about the most simple and you can find an overwhelming amount there. I also put much stock in "Young's Literal Translation" as he translated against his own theology (Presbyterian) in the pursuit of accuracy. He lost some friendships (it is said) because of that. That tells me he was very honest in his work and translation.

I also follow "Torah Times" for the Hebrew angle and "Daniel" (publisher and author) has shown to be very knowledgeable on this particular subject:

"Una autem sabbati" is so hallowed by tradition that it will never be changed. Yet so is the English translation "On the first day of the Week."
You are correct..........it is all tradition.... and probably never will be done away with.
You are merely seeking to introduce a spurious English translation to support some silly theory that has no provenance, to make yourself look clever.
Well.....you can call it spurious and silly if it seems that way to you. I don't mind as I know the difficulty in realizing error from childhood is a difficult thing to overcome. And......I'm not the least bit clever. I just read what I see......and use common sense.

It makes me wonder why folks believe our Savior would want to associate Himself with pagan idolatry. Would He (and His Father) not think the Sabbath would be appropriate for His resurrection?
This is old hat. I've already dealt with it, and I've also pointed out that the Jerome's NT is largely based on the Vetus Latina anyway, so that there was a reluctance to change things hallowed by tradition. Its imitation of the Greek was reason enough to leave Matt 28:1 unchanged.
Yup.....you dealt with it to the best of your ability.
That much is tripe. Even the Nova Vulgata has dispensed with that verse hallowed by tradition, 1 John 5:7, the "Johannine Comma".
My friend.....this is going nowhere....but I wish you well and appreciate your comments. I'll step aside so others may join the discussion without my interference. If you think I'm running away.......that's also O.K. as I understand your frustration.
No one had any idea what scholarship you follow. You've yet to reveal it.
Blessings to your home....and all within.
 
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