The Messiah and the 3 days and 3 nights timeframe of Matthew 12:40?

There is much. Google is about the most simple and you can find an overwhelming amount there. I also put much stock in "Young's Literal Translation" as he translated against his own theology (Presbyterian) in the pursuit of accuracy. He lost some friendships (it is said) because of that. That tells me he was very honest in his work and translation.

I also follow "Torah Times" for the Hebrew angle and "Daniel" (publisher and author) has shown to be very knowledgeable on this particular subject:


You are correct..........it is all tradition.... and probably never will be done away with.

Well.....you can call it spurious and silly if it seems that way to you. I don't mind as I know the difficulty in realizing error from childhood is a difficult thing to overcome. And......I'm not the least bit clever. I just read what I see......and use common sense.

It makes me wonder why folks believe our Savior would want to associate Himself with pagan idolatry. Would He (and His Father) not think the Sabbath would be appropriate for His resurrection?

Yup.....you dealt with it to the best of your ability.

My friend.....this is going nowhere....but I wish you well and appreciate your comments. I'll step aside so others may join the discussion without my interference. If you think I'm running away.......that's also O.K. as I understand your frustration.

Blessings to your home....and all within.
It is so very hard to let go of tradition.

Your thesis is beautifully logical and transgresses not a whit the Scriptures.
The first time I read it, I was struck by how stuck my mind had been to that point.

Of course, the heart of the earth is the grave. It’s poetic.
Never in a million years would I have thought to look for an answer as I was unaware of the question.
I’ll state here that I don’t believe the issue to be one of salvific import, but my Creator came alive again as I studied closely, looking for the error that must obviously be there and not finding it.
There are a lot of wonderful and not so wonderful stories in the church that aren’t there in the scriptures.

What do you think would happen if you started a question regarding the scriptural evidence for five crosses on Golgotha?

May your new year be better than your old year, henceforth forevermore.
Peace and greetings to you and family. I will continue to praise YHWH for His oversight and blessings of you and yours
today and tomorrow
 
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It is so very hard to let go of tradition.

Your thesis is beautifully logical and transgresses not a whit the Scriptures.
The first time I read it, I was struck by how stuck my mind had been to that point.

Of course, the heart of the earth is the grave. It’s poetic.
Never in a million years would I have thought to look for an answer as I was unaware of the question.
I’ll state here that I don’t believe the issue to be one of salvific import, but my Creator came alive again as I studied closely, looking for the error that must obviously be there and not finding it.
There are a lot of wonderful and not so wonderful stories in the church that aren’t there in the scriptures.

What do you think would happen if you started a question regarding the scriptural evidence for five crosses on Golgotha?

May your new year be better than your old year, henceforth forevermore.
Peace and greetings to you and family. I will continue to praise YHWH for His oversight and blessings of you and yours
today and tomorrow
Thank you for your very kind words.

Yes......the three crosses on Golgotha are also just tradition and Satan has made sure that this very obvious error has become a major symbol of world wide Christianity. It is what he does best.......fooling folks into an inaccurate story and tweaking the facts.

Again, our Savior's main word of warning to us has always been false tradition.
 
Again, our Savior's main word of warning to us has always been false tradition.
No. The main word of warning has always been as to false Messiahs who promote themselves over others and over Christ and lead people astray. "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ," Galatians 6:14, said Paul, but others glory in esoteric "knowledge" that they pretend is superior to that of others.
 
KJV [Matthew 28:1-2] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

The above is what was rendered by King James and the Church of England.....shortly removed from the tentacles of Catholicism. Unfortunately, Martin Luther, being the anti-semetic he was......agreed with his previous church that absolutely nothing good could come of honoring Yahweh's Sabbaths in any form whatsoever. So.....he bought into the Sunday Fairy tale which has no biblical backing whatsoever........ if you check the Greek language.....that is.

The other gospels were rendered the same by the obedient translators.

[Mark 16:2] And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

[Luke 24:1] Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

[John 20:1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

I have highlighted the addition to scripture in the form of day. It does not exist in the original manuscripts and was added by Catholic translators to embolden their case for a Sunday resurrection. If you check your KJV you'll see that it is italicized for that reason.

Robert Young was the most important Hebrew/Greek scholar of the 19th century and published some very concise works....among which is Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible.....found in any major library, secular or religious. He also published the Hebrew/Greek Literal Language bible.....considered his foremost literal work.

YLT/LIteral Hebrew [Leviticus 23:15-16]`And ye have numbered to you from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day of your bringing in the sheaf of the wave-offering: they are seven perfect sabbaths, unto the morrow of the seventh sabbath ye do number fifty days, and ye have brought near a new present to Jehovah;

The above passage is in relation to verse 5: in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, [is] the passover to Jehovah;

After Passover the Count of the Omer requires numbering and observing each weekly Sabbath in the march to Shavuot (Pentecost/The giving of the Law).....first Sabbath, second Sabbath, third Sabbath etc.

YLT [Matthew 28:1-2] And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,
YLT [Mark 16:2] and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,
YLT [Luke 24:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain [others] with them,
YLT [John 20:1] And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

Now you must ask yourself.............why didn't the Greek use the word EBDOMADOS (which means week in Greek) instead of Sabbaths? When you realize the lengths the early Catholic Church was willing to go to to besmirch anything that smacked of Hebraisms of any sort......you wonder.

Here is Jerome's Vulgate for [Matthew 28:1] vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in "primam sabbati" venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum

Jerome wrote his "Vulgate" (4th century A.D.) before the Catholic Church changed the words to reflect a "Sunday" morning affair. Do you see the actual Latin words for "First Sabbath"? The "First Day of the Week" entered the Lexicon because of Catholicisms desire to honor their Sun god......and for no other reason. Foolish Protestants should by now......know better. Your Savior resurrected on the first Sabbath after Passover in the 50 day count to Pentecost and the tomb was empty when the women visited at Sabbath daybreak.
Young just transliterated sabbaths rather than translate it into English so it doesn't add much to the discussion in terms of understanding.

The missing interim step in the interpretation you offer is the LXX, a pre-incarnation Greek translation of the Bible and some other works.

It is only a translation, but it provides evidence of how Hebrew was translated into Greek before the time of the NT. In the instances where the NT author's cited that Greek translation those passages received a defacto Greek canonical status. The penman of the NT were often not reinventing the wheel in this regard.

As a point of comparison, check out the use of μιαν article plural genitive in the LXX and some of the common English translations of those passages.

For what it is worth, I think Lampe's (sp?) Greek lexical work in the context of pre NT use and post NT ECF use is available on the net.

In another post you referred to your app. Do you mind posting which app that is?
 
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why do you suppose He made the specific point that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3
days and 3 nights?

The Bible predicted Jesus' body wouldn't undergo putrefaction. (Ps 16:10 & Acts
13:35) Any more than three days would've annulled the prediction; for example:

"Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid
across the entrance. He said: Take away the stone. But, Lord-- said Martha, the
sister of the dead man --by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four
days." (John 11:38-39)

There is an abundance of biblical evidence that Jesus' crucified dead body was
restored to life early on the third day rather than later after the third day was over
and done with; so his remains were well within safe parameters with time to spare.

Matt 17:22-23
Matt 20:18-19
Mark 9:31
Luke 9:22
Luke 18:33
Luke 24:5-8
Luke 24:21-23
Luke 24:46
John 2:19
Acts 10:40
1Cor 15:4
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FAQ: Luke 24:21-23 says the morning that women came to the cemetery was the
third day. How can that be true when according to John 20:1 the sun wasn't up yet
when they arrived?


REPLY: That's an excellent point because according to the first chapter of Genesis,
day is when the sun is up and night is when the sun is down.

However, liturgical days-- e.g. feasts and sabbaths --complicate things a bit
because they begin at sunset instead of sunrise; for example:

Matt 28:1 . . In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day
of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

According to Genesis time, it was not yet a new day when the women arrived;
whereas liturgically it was because the sabbath wrapped at sundown the previous
day.


FAQ: Can the hours of darkness during Jesus' crucifixion be counted as one of the
three nights?


REPLY: Jesus survived those hours. Matt 12:40 requires that he be dead and buried.
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Bouncing from Matt 12:40 we get Jonah 1:17, which says:

"The Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and he was inside the fish three
days and three nights."


FAQ: Was Jonah alive in the fish?

REPLY: Yes. (Jonah 2:1)

FAQ: The whole time?

REPLY: No; at some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called
sheol (Jonah 2:2) which is located at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, nor are they
located under the sea, rather: they're located underground deep in the Earth. So,
the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots of the mountains while
simultaneously in the belly of a fish was for the man and his body to part company
and go their separate ways. (This is not impossible because according to Matt
10:28 people can exist as disembodied souls.)

Also, the language of Jonah's prayer strongly suggests that his corpse was restored
to life, i.e. resurrected.

Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars
was around me forever, But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my
God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" basically pertains to holes in the ground, but sometimes
speaks of putrefaction too, e.g. Ps 16:8-10 & Acts 2:25-31. In other words; had
Jonah's body been left inside that fish's tummy for much longer, it would've been
digested to oblivion.

Matt 12:40 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge
fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' remains weren't laid to rest in the heart of the
Earth; and in point of fact they weren't even buried in the Earth's soil. They were
laid to rest up on the surface of the earth in a rock-hewn tomb. So the only way
that Jesus could be up on the surface of the Earth and down its interior
simultaneously was for he and his body to part company and go their separate
ways the same as Jonah's did.

Also: it was essential to get Jesus back up on his feet again before a fourth day to
prevent his body from being lost to rot. (John 11:39, Ps 16:8-10, Acts 2:25-31)


NOTE: Jonah 2:5-7 strongly suggests that he was already deceased via drowning
prior to the fish; which makes sense seeing as Jesus died on the cross prior to the
tomb, viz: neither man was buried alive.
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When responding to the Pharisees' request for a sign from the Messiah, why do you suppose He made the specific point that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights? Is there something meaningful about that time period?
The answer is found in Luke 24:44ff.

“44. Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46. and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47. and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48. “You are witnesses of these things.” (Luke 24:44-48, NASB)

There was a real man named Jonah and things went as the book says in anticipation of the Christ.

“29. As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. 30. “For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.” (Luke 11:29-30, NASB)
 
Jonah was the antitype - three days and three nights.

Catholic "Holy Week" is a denominational farce. Jesus DIED on Wednesday, and rose again Sunday morning (after sundown Saturday for us).

"Good Friday, should be "Good Wednesday". BUT HEY!!! the Catholics have trained their People that they DON'T NEED WINE in their "Eucharist", since the "Wafer" alone is "good enough". Obviously an economic decision - WINE is Expen$ive.
Hi Bob,

I would say that Jonah was the type in the same way that Paul describes the relation of Adam to Christ as type and antitype.

The church calendar is just a bunch of place holders. It isn't a claim that whatever event happened on this day in history is the day it is observed.

Our calendar and the Hebrew calendar were not in sync. Even with the change to the Hebrew calendar which makes it stay in sync longer there will be slippage.
 
The answer is found in Luke 24:44ff.

“44. Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46. and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47. and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48. “You are witnesses of these things.” (Luke 24:44-48, NASB)

There was a real man named Jonah and things went as the book says in anticipation of the Christ.

“29. As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. 30. “For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.” (Luke 11:29-30, NASB)
That still doesn't answer the question as to why three days and three nights were significant.
 
Instead.....why don't you explain it for all of us?
I did. What does Paul say? He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. That means multiple Scriptures are involved in the resurrection on the third day.

Look at the Scriptures written prior to the incarnation and see the works of God on the third day.

If someone is trying to understand the matter in a different manner then they are viewing it in an out of context manner. It is one faith from Genesis through Revelation.
 
I did. What does Paul say? He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. That means multiple Scriptures are involved in the resurrection on the third day.

Look at the Scriptures written prior to the incarnation and see the works of God on the third day.

If someone is trying to understand the matter in a different manner then they are viewing it in an out of context manner. It is one faith from Genesis through Revelation.
Instead of telling me to look at the scriptures.......why don't you just explain everything? Then we'll look at the scriptures to see if you actually know what you're talking about.
 
Instead of telling me to look at the scriptures.......why don't you just explain everything? Then we'll look at the scriptures to see if you actually know what you're talking about.
The question is whether Paul knew what he was talking about. I say yes, as do most people who claim to believe the Bible is true.

Jesus told the unbelievers that the Scriptures testify of Him. He told His disciples, “44. Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46. and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47. and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48. “You are witnesses of these things.”” (Luke 24:44-48, NASB)

If your church is not regularly proclaiming Christ to you and for you from the Scriptures, both the OT and NT, then it is focused on the wrong thing. Asking someone to look up words or phrases in this age of search engines is no great thing, but it does break the cycle of evaluating evidence according to an out of context measure.

Scripture alone is lord and master over all other writings on earth.
 
The question is whether Paul knew what he was talking about. I say yes, as do most people who claim to believe the Bible is true.

Jesus told the unbelievers that the Scriptures testify of Him. He told His disciples, “44. Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45. Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46. and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47. and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48. “You are witnesses of these things.”” (Luke 24:44-48, NASB)

If your church is not regularly proclaiming Christ to you and for you from the Scriptures, both the OT and NT, then it is focused on the wrong thing. Asking someone to look up words or phrases in this age of search engines is no great thing, but it does break the cycle of evaluating evidence according to an out of context measure.

Scripture alone is lord and master over all other writings on earth.
Okay........you win. I'll give up asking why the third day was significant since you evidently don't know the answer and I don't want to pester you anymore about it.........
 
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