The Mormon Jesus

[RCM]

The Mormon Jesus​

This post is very important to comprehend for Mormons who have questions about their faith and others who come to CARM to read the forums in order to try and discern what is True and what the Bible really teaches!

Watch Mormon Apologists on CARM try and deny the shortcomings of Mormon scripture and doctrine.

When you deceive and tell a lie, you have to tell another lie to try and cover it all up, and the Bible exposes the LDS deception.

Here are two quotes about the Mormon Jesus,

Quote from Orson Hyde, March 18, 1855

I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference (October 6, 1854), that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.

All that I have to say in reply to that charge is this—they worship a Savior that is too pure and holy to fulfil the commands of his Father. I worship one that is just pure and holy enough "to fulfil all righteousness;" not only the righteous law of baptism, but the still more righteous and important law "to multiply and replenish the earth." Startle not at this! for even the Father himself honored that law by coming down to Mary, without a natural body, and begetting a son; and if Jesus begat children, he only "did that which he had seen his Father do." (Quote form Journal of Discourses, Volume 2, page 210).


Quote from brotherofJared,

That depends on what you think God is. You all seem to believe that God is an intelligence that keeps his creations in a fishbowl and oddly, just watches them kill each other and promises them that they will live forever in that fishbowl if they love him. It doesn't seem to me that it'd make any difference if that kind of being is a man or a spirit. Either way, regardless of what he is, he could easily do that, but to what end?

But one thing is for sure, Jesus is a glorified man, an exalted man and not a spirit. Your suggestion seems to include Jesus on that spiritual evolutionary ladder. If Jesus can be embodied and be that man looking in the fishbowl after his creations, then certainly, God can be too.


So from the statements above we know that Mormons believe that Jesus was begotten when the Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary, his daughter (that would be by incest as the Mormon God has a tangible body of flesh and bones, D&C 130).

Jesus was married (you cannot attain the Celestial Kingdom without the covenant of marriage, D&C 131 & 132).

Jesus begat physical children

Jesus is a glorified man, an exalted man and but not a spirit

Mormon Doctrine teaches that Mormons believe satan is a brother of Jesus (Mormons believe that Heavenly Father is the father of us all, making us all brothers and sisters. In that sense, yes, Mormons believe that Jesus and satan are siblings, but no more than you and I are also siblings of them). (Defining statement from Mormon Apologetic website).


What Does The Bible Say About Jesus?

The definitive NT scripture on Jesus is found in John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

The definitive scripture on God in the OT is found in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" And also in Isaiah 9:6, "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Matthew 1:23 states, "Behold, The Virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "GOD with us."

The Bible says in John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

The Bible says that Jesus was God and was spirit before He took on flesh, Hebrews 2:14 “Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.”

Colossians 1:16-17 says about Jesus, “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

Zechariah 12:1 “Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”

Another Scripture that is even more condemning of the Mormon doctrine on Jesus can be found in Matthew 9:22; Mark 5:34; and Luke 8:48 which states, “But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.”

There is no way the LDS can explain how or why Jesus would call her ‘Daughter’ but, Biblical Scripture is explicit that Jesus is Holy God, same as the Father, and that this woman was His creation and that she had become His daughter by adoption based upon her saving faith.

Galatians 4:5 “So that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”


The Bible refutes and exposes LDS doctrine and beliefs as unbiblical

Paul warned Christians about Mormonism almost 1800 years before about those who teach about a false god, another Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Mormons accuse Biblical Christians of creating arguments of strawmen against Mormonism which have no foundation in reality or the Bible, and then destroying those strawmen in argument with Biblical Scripture, thereby claiming to defeat Mormon beliefs.

The real Strawman, is the Mormon Jesus, He does not exist in reality and most certainly is not the same Jesus as the Biblical Jesus!



RCM

 

[Bonnie]

I have been told on here years ago that the idea that Jesus was married was never an official doctrine, but "pious opinion." However, some Mormons did defend it. We had more Mormons on here back then, than now. I was told that the wedding in Cana was Jesus' own wedding, but that is just plain stupid, since the text in John says Jesus and His mother were invited to the wedding--I forget the exact wording. Who gets invited to their own wedding?

 

[Erundur]

Mormons believe that Jesus was begotten when the Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary

Our church does not teach that Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary.

Jesus was married

Our church does not teach that Jesus was married.

Jesus begat physical children

Our church does not teach that Jesus begat physical children.

 

[RCM]

I have been told on here years ago that the idea that Jesus was married was never an official doctrine, but "pious opinion." However, some Mormons did defend it. We had more Mormons on here back then, than now. I was told that the wedding in Cana was Jesus' own wedding, but that is just plain stupid, since the text in John says Jesus and His mother were invited to the wedding--I forget the exact wording. Who gets invited to their own wedding?

Bonnie,

There was a point in the 1970's that the criticism of the LDS Church and that they were not Christian because of their theology and doctrine on Jesus, and that they were nothing more than a cult, really struck a nerve.

Since that time a major shift in LDS teaching began to center more on Jesus as Savior and on the Bible and they began to distance themselves
from many old LDS beliefs and doctrines

As someone who grew up 1960's and 1970's in a dominant Mormon community, I was exposed to the old Mormon beliefs, I know what they
were, and if truth be known, when Mormons are talking amongst themselves, they still hold to many of them.



RCM

 

[RCM]

Our church does not teach that Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary.


Our church does not teach that Jesus was married.


Our church does not teach that Jesus begat physical children.

Erundur,

You should have said the LDS Church no longer teaches these beliefs and doctrines or they no longer teach them openly.

But teach and believe them prior to 1978, they most certainly did.

LDS cannot erase their doctrinal history, it is permanently there. All of the early LDS Church leaders that were raised up underneath Joseph
Smith's instruction and what was taught from 1830 to 1945 is the foundation of the LDS Church.


RCM

 

[Erundur]

You should have said the LDS Church no longer teaches these beliefs and doctrines or they no longer teach them openly.

I said exactly what I should have--the truth. Our church does not teach that. Now if some members of our church, even a church leader, believed that, that's fine. But that does not by itself make it a teaching of our church.

But teach and believe them prior to 1978, they most certainly did.

Yet you used the present tense in your post.

LDS cannot erase their doctrinal history, it is permanently there.

I have no problem with our true doctrinal history.

 

[The Prophet]

I said exactly what I should have--the truth. Our church does not teach that. Now if some members of our church, even a church leader, believed that, that's fine. But that does not by itself make it a teaching of our church.


Yet you used the present tense in your post.


I have no problem with our true doctrinal history.

Should not matter if it's Past, Present or future history of Mormonism if it was developed by an Omniscient God

 

[Bonnie]

Erundur,

You should have said the LDS Church no longer teaches these beliefs and doctrines or they no longer teach them openly.

But teach and believe them prior to 1978, they most certainly did.

LDS cannot erase their doctrinal history, it is permanently there. All of the early LDS Church leaders that were raised up underneath Joseph
Smith's instruction and what was taught from 1830 to 1945 is the foundation of the LDS Church.


RCM

Some Mormon teachings are on shifting sand...what may be teaching under one "prophet" could be repudiated by another....like the "Adam as God" doctrine.

 

[Erundur]

Some Mormon teachings are on shifting sand...

Hardly.

 

[Bonnie]

Hardly.

No, not on "hard" ground at all! Look at the "Adam" as God doctrine--it was taught under B.Young. until after his death, when it was dropped. That is one glaring example.

 

[The Prophet]

No, not on "hard" ground at all! Look at the "Adam" as God doctrine--it was taught under B.Young. until after his death, when it was dropped. That is one glaring example.

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are gods, why not Adam ? ​

Doctrine and Covenants section 132:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.



37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

[Bonnie]

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are gods, why not Adam ? ​

Doctrine and Covenants section 132:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.



37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

Sad, isn,'t it?

 

[brotherofJared]

So from the statements above we know that Mormons believe that Jesus was begotten when the Heavenly Father had physical relations with Mary, his daughter (that would be by incest as the Mormon God has a tangible body of flesh and bones, D&C 130).

I made no such reference and Orson Hyde only said that God begat a son. I believe sex would have to be involved if we were going to call it incest and neither person said anything about sex. You go too far.

Even today, people of flesh and bones can produce children in women without having sex. I think God is advanced far beyond what we are capable of doing. It's quite possible that sex never occurred.

Along the incest lines, it seems that since we are all children of Adam, the act of procreation is incest. Aren't we all having sex with a brother or sister? It seems to me that your "incest" argument is rather lame.

Jesus was married (you cannot attain the Celestial Kingdom without the covenant of marriage, D&C 131 & 132).

What's your problem with that? Was he human or not? Was he a man or not? Do men get married? Isn't that tradition? If he remained a bachelor would they have called him Rabbi? Possibly, they would have, but traditionally, marriage was appropriate for adult men in Israel in Jesus' day.

Jesus begat physical children

It's possible, right? If he was a man then it seems possible that he could have children. Whether He did or not at that time, makes no difference. In your religion, it might, but in our religion, having children is an eternal thing. Many people who could not have children here, but were married, can and will, if properly married, have children sometime in the eternities. It's their choice. People who aren't married by proper authority, won't. So, it's not necessary that Jesus had children during his mortal existence, but that doesn't mean he'll never have children. Just take a look at Jesus. He was physically born of God as God's only begotten son sometime in the eternities.

Jesus is a glorified man, an exalted man and but not a spirit

Who said Jesus was not a spirit? We are all embodied spirits. That includes Jesus at the time he said, "God is a spirit". If we're going to argue apples and oranges, we need to keep them separated. My point was that in your oranges theology, God is a single being with three personalities. I don't see how you can separate this single being and claim that the Father was a spirit and Jesus was a man. If God is a single being, then God has a body and in that body, there are three personalities. If we are going to argue my apples theology, then we can separate the beings that are God. God the Father is a separate being, both spiritually and physically from the Son.

If the Son can have a body and be an all-powerful God, then it seems reasonable to believe that God the Father could be equally all-powerful and have a body too. In fact, if we follow what Orson Hyde said, it would be impossible for Jesus to do only what he saw His Father do if His Father didn't have a body. We are talking about actions, like walking and talking, not to mention healing the sick, raising the dead, walking on water, calming the seas, casting out devils, and here's the best one --- dying. It's kind of hard for a spirit to die, don't you think? Have you ever seen one die? Have you ever seen one?

Mormons believe that Heavenly Father is the father of us all, making us all brothers and sisters.

Hmmm. Don't you all believe that as well?

The real Strawman, is the Mormon Jesus,

LOL. You clearly don't understand the concept of a straw man in apologetics.

 

[brotherofJared]

Our church does not teach that Jesus was married.

It did at one time. Orson Hyde taught it. It was fairly common in the early days of our church. We've since dropped it. There is no proof, but there is evidence for it.

 

[brotherofJared]

I have no problem with our true doctrinal history.

Yep. There is a clear difference between history and "true doctrinal history". Whether or not Jesus was married is open to speculation. It is not now, nor ever has been "doctrine". The teaching is, however; part of our history.

 

[brotherofJared]

Some Mormon teachings are on shifting sand...what may be teaching under one "prophet" could be repudiated by another....like the "Adam as God" doctrine.

Nope. Not repudiated by anyone. We reject our critics' "theory". Adam is a god, little "g" and Brigham Young's description of his role is clearly in agreement with Daniel 7. Adam is the Ancient of Days. We have never repudiated that nor shifted our stance on it.

 

[Redeemed]

Nope. Not repudiated by anyone. We reject our critics' "theory". Adam is a god, little "g" and Brigham Young's description of his role is clearly in agreement with Daniel 7. Adam is the Ancient of Days. We have never repudiated that nor shifted our stance on it.

Finally... We have someone that can stand up for their beliefs and communicate an intelligent manner.

 

[The Prophet]

I made no such reference and Orson Hyde only said that God begat a son. I believe sex would have to be involved if we were going to call it incest and neither person said anything about sex. You go too far.

Even today, people of flesh and bones can produce children in women without having sex. I think God is advanced far beyond what we are capable of doing. It's quite possible that sex never occurred.

Along the incest lines, it seems that since we are all children of Adam, the act of procreation is incest. Aren't we all having sex with a brother or sister? It seems to me that your "incest" argument is rather lame.

What's your problem with that? Was he human or not? Was he a man or not? Do men get married? Isn't that tradition? If he remained a bachelor would they have called him Rabbi? Possibly, they would have, but traditionally, marriage was appropriate for adult men in Israel in Jesus' day.

It's possible, right? If he was a man then it seems possible that he could have children. Whether He did or not at that time, makes no difference. In your religion, it might, but in our religion, having children is an eternal thing. Many people who could not have children here, but were married, can and will, if properly married, have children sometime in the eternities. It's their choice. People who aren't married by proper authority, won't. So, it's not necessary that Jesus had children during his mortal existence, but that doesn't mean he'll never have children. Just take a look at Jesus. He was physically born of God as God's only begotten son sometime in the eternities.

Who said Jesus was not a spirit? We are all embodied spirits. That includes Jesus at the time he said, "God is a spirit". If we're going to argue apples and oranges, we need to keep them separated. My point was that in your oranges theology, God is a single being with three personalities. I don't see how you can separate this single being and claim that the Father was a spirit and Jesus was a man. If God is a single being, then God has a body and in that body, there are three personalities. If we are going to argue my apples theology, then we can separate the beings that are God. God the Father is a separate being, both spiritually and physically from the Son.

That would be modalism, while the Trinity says ONE GOD, three separate and distinct persons with three separate persons

If the Son can have a body and be an all-powerful God, then it seems reasonable to believe that God the Father could be equally all-powerful and have a body too. In fact, if we follow what Orson Hyde said, it would be impossible for Jesus to do only what he saw His Father do if His Father didn't have a body. We are talking about actions, like walking and talking, not to mention healing the sick, raising the dead, walking on water, calming the seas, casting out devils, and here's the best one --- dying. It's kind of hard for a spirit to die, don't you think? Have you ever seen one die? Have you ever seen one?


Hmmm. Don't you all believe that as well?

LOL. You clearly don't understand the concept of a straw man in apologetics.

 

[Bonnie]

Nope. Not repudiated by anyone. We reject our critics' "theory". Adam is a god, little "g" and Brigham Young's description of his role is clearly in agreement with Daniel 7. Adam is the Ancient of Days. We have never repudiated that nor shifted our stance on it.

But your church is still wrong...the Ancient of Days is God the Father, Who is eternal and uncreated--not Adam.

And Young STILL taught Adam was your god, and the ONLY one with which you had to do. What does ONLY mean, boJ?

 

[The Prophet]

That would be modalism, while the Trinity says ONE GOD, three separate and distinct persons with three separate persons

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

Was Mosiah written before Jesus became man ?