The most important doctrine in Scripture- The bodily Resurrection of Jesus !

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Sethproton,
a metonymy does not mean "the cause is put for the effect" A metonymy is something completely different
I understand metonymy as sometimes representing cause for effect and other examples. We say someone is drunk, but the meaning is that he has drunk too much alcohol, or figuratively "he's been on the bottle again". Jesus is going to bring our life from heaven, but life is what the individual has or is given, and therefore it is not life that Jesus brings, nor does he bring a new body. The word "sin" is used as a metonymy in Romans 8:3 "condemned sin in the flesh".
When angels appear on earth, they adopt a form so they can be seen. That form does not come with them from the spiritual world, they put it on when they come here.
That is your theology, not mine. I believe that what people saw of the Angels is what they are, except I believe that they can withhold their glory. I believe that after the resurrection the disciples saw Jesus as he is, but he withheld his glory. He revealed his glory to Paul on the way to Damascus.
A spiritual body is suited to the spiritual world, not the natural world.
I disagree with this logic. I do not understand the spiritual world to be comprised of ethereal creatures, like ghosts. I believe that Jesus and the Angels are substantial physical beings. They are spiritual bodies, not spirits. The word "spirit" comes from "breath", but it has a far wider meaning than is usually claimed.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
Greetings again Sethproton,

I understand metonymy as sometimes representing cause for effect and other examples. We say someone is drunk, but the meaning is that he has drunk too much alcohol, or figuratively "he's been on the bottle again". Jesus is going to bring our life from heaven, but life is what the individual has or is given, and therefore it is not life that Jesus brings, nor does he bring a new body. The word "sin" is used as a metonymy in Romans 8:3 "condemned sin in the flesh".

That is your theology, not mine. I believe that what people saw of the Angels is what they are, except I believe that they can withhold their glory. I believe that after the resurrection the disciples saw Jesus as he is, but he withheld his glory. He revealed his glory to Paul on the way to Damascus.

I disagree with this logic. I do not understand the spiritual world to be comprised of ethereal creatures, like ghosts. I believe that Jesus and the Angels are substantial physical beings. They are spiritual bodies, not spirits. The word "spirit" comes from "breath", but it has a far wider meaning than is usually claimed.

Kind regards
Trevor
ok, as far as the word metonymy, I think it may be pointless to wrangle over that.
As you used the term in reference to the new body which is from heaven, I would just point out again, they are two bodies, different from each other. One is compared to a temporary tent the other two a stone building. But of course those are metaphors to give us a clue about what is coming. Another image is that the physical body is like the seed where the spiritual is like the plant, the difference is one of nature, structure and size. When Paul makes that comparison he does not comment that the seed becomes the plant, instead only on the dramatic difference between them. But then you already think there are two bodies, right?

Nobody has seen God as He is. When that happens, those who see Him as He is will be transformed to be like Him. That has not happened yet for anyone living on the earth.

As far as angel bodies go, i am making some conjecture based on what the bible teaches. It teaches they can appear in different forms. Demons are fallen angels and when they inhabit a human, they do not have bodies like humans. Some of them are described in nightmarish ways.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again Sethproton,
But then you already think there are two bodies, right?
No, only one body, the same body before (mortal) and after (immortal) the transformation process.
Nobody has seen God as He is. When that happens, those who see Him as He is will be transformed to be like Him. That has not happened yet for anyone living on the earth.
You are alluding to 1 John 3:1-3 and that is speaking about Jesus, the Son of God not God the Father. I believe that Jesus is a man, but now glorified, a glorified man. We will be glorified, after the same pattern or process as Jesus has experienced, or in other words our bodies will be transformed when we see Jesus at his return Philippians 3:20-21.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Greetings again Sethproton,

No, only one body, the same body before (mortal) and after (immortal) the transformation process.

You are alluding to 1 John 3:1-3 and that is speaking about Jesus, the Son of God not God the Father. I believe that Jesus is a man, but now glorified, a glorified man. We will be glorified, after the same pattern or process as Jesus has experienced, or in other words our bodies will be transformed when we see Jesus at his return Philippians 3:20-21.

Kind regards
Trevor
I think you are in line with the majority of the church in these ideas.
 

Marcha

Member
And we can see that John in his Prologue parallels the Genesis 1 account of Creation once again pointing to the Son. All Scripture point to Him. Its all about Him from cover to cover.

Jesus declared the OT was about Himself

Luke 24:25-27
25
And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.


John 5:39-40
39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


Luke 24:44-45
44
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


Jesus said the Holy Spirit will bear witness of HIM

John 15:26

“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7-9
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me

John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

So I always bear witness to the Son who is God, Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Lord, YHWH, Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, The King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Lord God Almighty, The True God and Eternal life. The Only Sovereign and Lord, the One Lord, God in the flesh, etc...........

hope this helps !!!
Great thinking!
 

Beloved

Active member
That's a new one to me. where are you getting the idea that the new body is transformed? Biblically that body simply exists in heaven, I know of no verses saying it is being transformed. But I am willing to learn if you know of verses that teach this.
Hello Seth, I believe this has been posted before but since I just came in today and read so many posts I could not find the exact ones I wanted to post for you. Hopefully the ones I post below will give you the answer you are looking for .

while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


When Christ went to heaven He was in His glorified body and I believe verse 21 tells us ours will be the same.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Hello Seth, I believe this has been posted before but since I just came in today and read so many posts I could not find the exact ones I wanted to post for you. Hopefully the ones I post below will give you the answer you are looking for .

while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


When Christ went to heaven He was in His glorified body and I believe verse 21 tells us ours will be the same.
Let me start out by saying, none of those verses you posted say that our body of flesh is transformed into a spiritual body.
Phil 3:21 speaks of our state. Our state is transformed, that is not our physical body.
Also are you aware that the Bible teaches the new body comes from heaven? While the old is taken down like a tent?
 
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civic

Well-known member
That's a new one to me. where are you getting the idea that the new body is transformed? Biblically that body simply exists in heaven, I know of no verses saying it is being transformed. But I am willing to learn if you know of verses that teach this.
1 Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3. Are those chapters in your bible ?

Philippians 3:20-1 says that our earthly body is transformed into conformity with Christ's body in the resurrection, not that God creates a new body from scratch: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
1 Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3. Are those chapters in your bible ?

Philippians 3:20-1 says that our earthly body is transformed into conformity with Christ's body in the resurrection, not that God creates a new body from scratch: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."
In this section it is our state that is transformed. It does not say our body is transformed.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
nope the body is transformed from corruptible to incorruptible, mortal to immortal.

next...................
That is your doctrine, but was not what the verse YOU chose states. Your verse declares that our state is changed, not our fleshly body.
 

civic

Well-known member
That is your doctrine, but was not what the verse YOU chose states. Your verse declares that our state is changed, not our fleshly body.
its the bible 101 not my doctrine. I suggest you quit reading and believing what the JWs teach on the resurrection its HERESY, a false christ who is a spirit not a man. Jesus said He was not a spirit in Luke 24:39 and you believe just the opposite and make Jesus out to be a liar. What a mockery of Christ.

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
its the bible 101 not my doctrine. I suggest you quit reading and believing what the JWs teach on the resurrection its HERESY, a false christ who is a spirit not a man. Jesus said He was not a spirit in Luke 24:39 and you believe just the opposite and make Jesus out to be a liar. What a mockery of Christ.

hope this helps !!!
Civic you betray yourself and your intent to deceive. You and I have had many chats so you already know that I have never read any JW material. You know this, yet it suits your purpose to write here as if you have some knowledge about me studying JW ideas.
Posters beware of this type of poster.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
its the bible 101 not my doctrine. I suggest you quit reading and believing what the JWs teach on the resurrection its HERESY, a false christ who is a spirit not a man. Jesus said He was not a spirit in Luke 24:39 and you believe just the opposite and make Jesus out to be a liar. What a mockery of Christ.

hope this helps !!!
you brought the verse up about our change of state as if it said we have a change of body.
My hope would be that other posters see that you throw anything out you can think of, then when brought to task about what you have said you try to redirect the conversation.
 

civic

Well-known member
Civic you betray yourself and your intent to deceive. You and I have had many chats so you already know that I have never read any JW material. You know this, yet it suits your purpose to write here as if you have some knowledge about me studying JW ideas.
Posters beware of this type of poster.
How could your views be identical to the watchtower on the Resurrection without ever reading them ?

Are you claiming it’s a 1/1,000,000 coincidence?
 

civic

Well-known member
you brought the verse up about our change of state as if it said we have a change of body.
My hope would be that other posters see that you throw anything out you can think of, then when brought to task about what you have said you try to redirect the conversation.
No my view is 100% biblical and I believe Jesus words whereas you deny them in Luke 24:39.

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
How could your views be identical to the watchtower on the Resurrection without ever reading them ?

Are you claiming it’s a 1/1,000,000 coincidence?
I would never believe a word you say. You claim my views are identical to Watchtower, but knowing the kind of posts you put out, it is a safe bet that your accusation is not true. Apparently you are claiming to be fully aware of watchtower doctrine. I am not. The only thing I have been told about them is that they have some weird view about who Jesus is. Something like Jesus is a God, instead of just God. Obviously I am not with them on that.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
No my view is 100% biblical and I believe Jesus words whereas you deny them in Luke 24:39.

hope this helps !!!
Again you brought up Phil 3 concerning our state. When I pointed out to you it was about our state not our body, you dropped it. That's who you are. It your pat answers fail, you have nothing
 

civic

Well-known member
I would never believe a word you say. You claim my views are identical to Watchtower, but knowing the kind of posts you put out, it is a safe bet that your accusation is not true. Apparently you are claiming to be fully aware of watchtower doctrine. I am not. The only thing I have been told about them is that they have some weird view about who Jesus is. Something like Jesus is a God, instead of just God. Obviously I am not with them on that.
You agreed with me on the old forum that they were the same . I’ll post your own words later today when I get home .
 
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