The most important doctrine in Scripture- The bodily Resurrection of Jesus !

Sethproton

Well-known member
You agreed with me on the old forum that they were the same . I’ll post your own words later today when I get home .
You will never see me saying that the Word is God, means the same as the Word is a God. The only way you could do that is if you alter my words then post them here
 

civic

Well-known member
You will never see me saying that the Word is God, means the same as the Word is a God. The only way you could do that is if you alter my words then post them here
Nice bait and switch we are discussing the bodily Resurrection and that the POV He is no longer a flesh and bone man and is a spirit now. That is 100% JW teaching
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Nice bait and switch we are discussing the bodily Resurrection and that the POV He is no longer a flesh and bone man and is a spirit now. That is 100% JW teaching
Is that what you meant? I misread your post. Yes, that is true, Jesus is no longer in a flesh body.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Then you agree with the JW cult just like I said you did seth.
That would depend on what the claim His body is. You cannot say two people agree, when all they agree on is what something is not. So tell me, how do they describe His eternal. non-flesh body? Then I can tell you if I agree.
 

civic

Well-known member
That would depend on what the claim His body is. You cannot say two people agree, when all they agree on is what something is not. So tell me, how do they describe His eternal. non-flesh body? Then I can tell you if I agree.
I’ll quote you from the old forum

Originally Posted by civic

[The JW’s are emphatic on the point that Jesus could not have been raised in a physical body and they go out of their way to make sure of this. “He Jesus merely materialized flesh and blood to be seen and believed” (Make Sure of all Things p.314 1953 Ed.) “We deny that he raised in the flesh, and challenge any statement to that effect as being unscriptural.” (The Finished Mystery p.57 1917) “Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more” (You can live in Paradise on Earth p.169 1982)


sethproton responds:

As much as it embarrasses me to have to agree with this statement, i think it more closely represents what I see in scripture than what i've been taught for 40 years. Of course the JW's have other doctrines which I don't see in the word.



http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...a-human-body&p=3454460&viewfull=1#post3454460
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I’ll quote you from the old forum

Originally Posted by civic

[The JW’s are emphatic on the point that Jesus could not have been raised in a physical body and they go out of their way to make sure of this. “He Jesus merely materialized flesh and blood to be seen and believed” (Make Sure of all Things p.314 1953 Ed.) “We deny that he raised in the flesh, and challenge any statement to that effect as being unscriptural.” (The Finished Mystery p.57 1917) “Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more” (You can live in Paradise on Earth p.169 1982)


sethproton responds:

As much as it embarrasses me to have to agree with this statement, i think it more closely represents what I see in scripture than what i've been taught for 40 years. Of course the JW's have other doctrines which I don't see in the word.



http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...a-human-body&p=3454460&viewfull=1#post3454460
And you read that statement of mine to say that I am aligned with JW doctrine. How does "this closely represents what I see" mean that I have bought into JW doctrine? I agree with them that Jesus was not in the same body He died in. You would have to be blind to think that what the disciples saw after He resurrected was His human fleshly body. Nobody ever recognizes His face or His voice. nobody knows who He is.
In every case, "something" happens, we don't know what, where the disciples realize who He is, but no one recognizes Him by His face or voice. You have had this pointed out to you maybe 20 times, and you have never even tried to refute it, yet you still teach Jesus was in the same body when He rose.
Cognative dissonance.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
No, I meant the idea they were longing for bodies seemed very strange. Although you make an interesting point as well.
Yes, I have wondered about that part too, thinking that being with Christ would appear to satisfy every need, despite not having yet received the new body from Heaven
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Yes, I have wondered about that part too, thinking that being with Christ would appear to satisfy every need, despite not having yet received the new body from Heaven

There is absolutely nothing about wanting or needing new bodies there that I can see.

Where did you find this strange idea?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
There is absolutely nothing about wanting or needing new bodies there that I can see.

Where did you find this strange idea?
I will have to go back and look, it has been years since I looked at that section, and maybe I have mixed it up with some other passage.
After I look i will get back to you.
Yes, you are right. I have remembered that wrong or confused it with some other passage. Thanks, I appreciate the correction
 

civic

Well-known member
And you read that statement of mine to say that I am aligned with JW doctrine. How does "this closely represents what I see" mean that I have bought into JW doctrine? I agree with them that Jesus was not in the same body He died in. You would have to be blind to think that what the disciples saw after He resurrected was His human fleshly body. Nobody ever recognizes His face or His voice. nobody knows who He is.
In every case, "something" happens, we don't know what, where the disciples realize who He is, but no one recognizes Him by His face or voice. You have had this pointed out to you maybe 20 times, and you have never even tried to refute it, yet you still teach Jesus was in the same body when He rose.
Cognative dissonance.
More evidence with your JW alignment on the Resurrection.

Here are your OWN WORDS which back up my claim from the old forum.

this may be one place where you and I differ. The more i study these related passages, the more I see that Christ was only a man until He died and His blood mediated the New Covenant. My current understanding was that as soon as He was shed of the human body, he was no longer human. Of course this is too deep for any of us to fully understand, and i can't claim to have it figured out, but what i see leads me this way.

It would be strange if I ended up having some overlap with JW's. And I don't know exactly what they think or how they describe what they think. I doubt I would get a sober, sensible description from the folks on this forum, they are so hot to destroy every heretic they never even try to understand what is being said. reminds me of the Black listing by the FBI. Substance and truth was never the issue, and here we can just be grateful they aren't allowed to burn us at the stake.

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...Jesus-part-3&p=4198505&viewfull=1#post4198505


“it is a spiritual body and not a physical body of flesh and bone.”

“Since the Bible teaches that all things physical will be annihilated, or rolled up like a garment and discarded, that would be the logical conclusion concerning the physical body Christ had before the resurrection.”

What do you find sad about saying that God for a while took on flesh, a body prepared for a limited time and as one of us lived perfect and died securing for us a new covenant with the Father and then taking back up what He had laid down, returning to His former glory with the Father. What is sad about that?

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?141903-The-Bodily-Resurrection-of-Jesus-part-3/page49


conclusion: These ideas above are straight out of the JW teachings. They teach verbatim His body was annihilated or rolled up like a garment and discarded. They made up that phrase. The JWs invented is seth. So quit playing dumb.

hope this helps !!!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
More evidence with your JW alignment on the Resurrection.

Here are your OWN WORDS which back up my claim from the old forum.

this may be one place where you and I differ. The more i study these related passages, the more I see that Christ was only a man until He died and His blood mediated the New Covenant. My current understanding was that as soon as He was shed of the human body, he was no longer human. Of course this is too deep for any of us to fully understand, and i can't claim to have it figured out, but what i see leads me this way.

It would be strange if I ended up having some overlap with JW's. And I don't know exactly what they think or how they describe what they think. I doubt I would get a sober, sensible description from the folks on this forum, they are so hot to destroy every heretic they never even try to understand what is being said. reminds me of the Black listing by the FBI. Substance and truth was never the issue, and here we can just be grateful they aren't allowed to burn us at the stake.

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...Jesus-part-3&p=4198505&viewfull=1#post4198505


“it is a spiritual body and not a physical body of flesh and bone.”

“Since the Bible teaches that all things physical will be annihilated, or rolled up like a garment and discarded, that would be the logical conclusion concerning the physical body Christ had before the resurrection.”

What do you find sad about saying that God for a while took on flesh, a body prepared for a limited time and as one of us lived perfect and died securing for us a new covenant with the Father and then taking back up what He had laid down, returning to His former glory with the Father. What is sad about that?

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?141903-The-Bodily-Resurrection-of-Jesus-part-3/page49


conclusion: These ideas above are straight out of the JW teachings. They teach verbatim His body was annihilated or rolled up like a garment and discarded. They made up that phrase. The JWs invented is seth. So quit playing dumb.

hope this helps !!!
One thing that jumps out which demonstrates your blindness is that you quote me talking about how the more I study the bible the more i understand, then you claim I study JW literature. If you are going to pretend I said something, it would be smarter not to post what i actually said.
 

civic

Well-known member
One thing that jumps out which demonstrates your blindness is that you quote me talking about how the more I study the bible the more i understand, then you claim I study JW literature. If you are going to pretend I said something, it would be smarter not to post what i actually said.
Your words are verbatim from the JWs. That is plagiarism .
 

civic

Well-known member
Again you brought up Phil 3 concerning our state. When I pointed out to you it was about our state not our body, you dropped it. That's who you are. It your pat answers fail, you have nothing
All the Fulness of Deity dwells in Him (permanently) as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9.


This is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT " from Colossians 1:19;2:9 concerning Christ being fully God lacking nothing in His Divinity while on this earth and His Ascension and also His humanity which remains permanent. The Incarnation was not temporal but Christ remains forever God in the flesh. All the fulness of Deity remains bodily.

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus. In Colossians 1:19 it is describing His earthly ministry and Colossians 2:9 it is describing His Post Resurrection/Ascension Glory as God Incarnate.


Colossians 1:19-20
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven

Colossians 2:9-10- For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 3:1- Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Paul is talking in Colossians chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.

Now read the Greek below on the present ongoing meaning of DWELLS . The bodily dwelling of Deity is permanent not temporary. The Incarnation was PERMANENT.

κατοικεῖ (katoikei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2730: To dwell in, settle in, be established in (permanently), inhabit. From kata and oikeo; to house permanently, i.e. Reside.

8.2 σωματικός, ή, όν; σωματικῶςa: (derivatives of σῶμαa ‘body,’ 8.1) pertaining to a physical body—‘bodily, physical, bodily form.’[1] Louw Nida

Expositor's Greek Testament
Colossians 2:9. in Him and in Him alone.—κατοικεῖ: “permanently dwells”. The reference is to the Exalted State, not only on account of the present, but of the context and Paul’s Christology generally.—πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος: “all the fulness of the Godhead”. πᾶν is emphatic, the whole fulness dwells in Christ.

“Dwelleth” is katoikei (κατοικει). Oikeō (Ὀικεω) means “to be at home.” Kata (Κατα), prefixed, means “down,” thus showing permanence. The compound verb was used of the permanent residents of a town as compared with the transient community. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action. The translation reads: “Because in Him there is continuously and permanently at home all the fulness of the Godhead in bodily fashion.”

conclusion: case closed seth once again your bodiless on human JW false christ has been exposed. once again I have demonstrated exegetical principles whereas all you have are non biblical human ideas void of truth.

hope this helps !!!
 
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