The most important doctrine in Scripture- The bodily Resurrection of Jesus !

[guest1]

Jesus is indeed a Spirit. The Bible states so.

Where seth ?

Jesus directly declared just the opposite post Resurrection and said the following:

Luke 24:39
See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Should we believe your jehovah witness false teaching or Jesus words above ?

Jesus said He was not a spirit and seth says Jesus is a spirit.

Who should we believe ? seth or Jesus

Try for a change to believe Jesus words over the jehovah witness cults false teaching.

What tangled webs one weaves when first they set out to deceive.

hope this helps !!!

 

[guest1]

@Sethproton

1 John 1:1- That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

And our hands have handled.—Comp. Matthew 26:49; Luke 24:39; John 20:27. This and the foregoing expressions might be directed against Cerinthus and the Doketists—those that held that Christ was only a phantom.elliot

Here the apostle seems chiefly to allude to what Christ said to his disciples when he appeared to them after his resurrection, and said, Handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have, Luke 24:39. On many other occasions, however, the disciples had an opportunity of handling their Master, and knowing that he had a real body. For example, when he washed their feet; when he took Peter by the hand to prevent him from sinking as he walked on the water; when the disciples gave him the loaves and fishes, and when he, after multiplying them, put them into their hands to be distributed to the multitude. John, in particular, had an opportunity of feeling Christ’s body when he leaned on his bosom during the last passover supper, John 13:23. Of the Word of life — He is termed the Word, John 1:1, the Life, John 1:4, as he is the living word of God, who with the Father and the Spirit, is the fountain of life to all creatures, particularly of spiritual and eternal life.benson

hope this helps !!!

 

[Sethproton]

Where seth ?

Jesus directly declared just the opposite post Resurrection and said the following:

Luke 24:39
See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Should we believe your jehovah witness false teaching or Jesus words above ?

Jesus said He was not a spirit and seth says Jesus is a spirit.

Who should we believe ? seth or Jesus

Try for a change to believe Jesus words over the jehovah witness cults false teaching.

What tangled webs one weaves when first they set out to deceive.

hope this helps !!!

Don't pretend Civic, we have talked about the verse multiple times. You know exactly where it says that Jesus is a spirit, that He has become a life giving spirit. These games are meant to stir confusion into the conversation, why do you do it?

 

[guest1]

Don't pretend Civic, we have talked about the verse multiple times. You know exactly where it says that Jesus is a spirit, that He has become a life giving spirit. These games are meant to stir confusion into the conversation, why do you do it?

more evasion.

read Jesus words in Luke 24:39 and get back to me as your jehovah witness false teaching doesn't fly here on a Christian forum

 

[Sethproton]

more evasion.

read Jesus words in Luke 24:39 and get back to me as your jehovah witness false teaching doesn't fly here on a Christian forum

So that people can see your games, you and i have had several conversations about 1 Cor 15:45 NAS ...the last Adam became a life giving spirit
And here you pretend not to know about this verse, Why do you do this?

 

[guest1]

So that people can see your games, you and i have had several conversations about 1 Cor 15:45 NAS ...the last Adam became a life giving spirit
And here you pretend not to know about this verse, Why do you do this?

Why do you avoid Jesus words in Luke 24:39 ?

You view of 1 cor 15:45 is a direct contradiction of Luke 24:39.

That should be your first clue your interpretation is wrong just like with the JW's. You see both passages identically to the watchtower bible and tract society.

1 Cor 15 means He is the source of the Spirit as He promised He would send His disciples upon His Ascension at Pentecost. He is the one who distributed the HS to believers. That is the meaning of 1 cor 15:45 which coincides with John 14-16 and John 1:4- In Him was Life- its SOURCE. He is Eternal Life and the One who promised He would send the Spirit in His absence- Another Comforter.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Sethproton]

I've been thinking about this a little more.

Paul does say in the 1 Cor. 15 passage:

Not all flesh, is the same flesh (1Co 15:39 ROT)

I think this could be a key to the issue; if we are arguing whether the body is "flesh" maybe we are equivocating about two kinds of flesh.

42 Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
43 It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:--

What I think is significant here, is the pronoun "it" is all written as referring the same antecedent. "It is sown," what it? The body. "It is raised," what it? It can't be a new it at this point. And yet we are told clearly this new body is fundamentally different—yet still the result of resurrecting the old body. So, in a way, it's kind of a combination view; we could easily call the new body a spiritual body, and yet it was raised, clearly here anyway, from the old one.

45 Thus, also, it is written--The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit, not first, is the [body] of the spirit, but that, of the soul,--afterwards, that of the spirit.

Due to the brackets here I think these particular verses contrast soul and spirit, rather than body and spirit.

47 The first man, is of the ground, earthy, the second man, is, of heaven:
48 As, the man of earth, such, also, the men of earth, and, as, the man of heaven, such, also, the men of heaven;
49 And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Clearly here, the heavenly Jesus is distinctly referred to as a "man" even though he is "of heaven." There is a sense of continuity and progression here, as one form of man changes into another form of man.

50 And, this, I say, brethren,--that, flesh and blood, cannot inherit, God's kingdom. Neither doth, corruption, inherit, incorruption. (1Co 15:42-50 ROT)

It seems there could be a "flesh" that is not made of "corruption" perhaps.

There is something you may want to look into or ask someone who you know who is fluent in Greek. In the verses 42-44 the word "it" is not explicitly present. Look at those three verses and read them without the word "it"

 

[Theo1689]

There is something you may want to look into or ask someone who you know who is fluent in Greek. In the verses 42-44 the word "it" is not explicitly present. Look at those three verses and read them without the word "it"

Seth, I happen to be fluent in Greek.
You happen to NOT be fluent in the Greek.
Which is why you have no clue what you're talking about.

In Greek, verbs are inflected.
What that means, is that they have the "person" (1st, 2nd, 3rd, singular or plural) built into the verb, something we don't have in English, but do have in other languages such as French.

So yes, the verbs in that passage are "3rd person singular", which means "he/she/it". Since the subject in the passage is "body" (Greek, "soma"), the pronoun is "it", just as we find in EVERY ENGLISH BIBLE TRANSLATION.

Please stop embarrassing yourself by constantly talking about "the Greek" when you have no clue what the Greek says, and obviously no clue as to how to correctly use Greek "helps".

 

[Sethproton]

Doesn't change anything for me, the verbs still have one specific thing they are referring to. What is sown is what is being raised, that seems clear, or why use the whole "seed" analogy. Pronouns can be inferred, it is a common thing, and it doesn't mean there is no referent. I think—I really don't want you to take this the wrong way—but I've just noticed that people don't determine ideas by grammar and logic. They seem attracted to certain ideas before they even approach the text. The Bible tells us doctrine is a supernatural thing. I think something is pulling you in the wrong direction here.

Peace in Christ.

So what is sown? Is it the body in the earth? Is it the soul into the spirit realm?
And yes pronouns can be inferred, and it is possible that "it" is correct, but my point was not to focus on the inferred part, but on the part actually stated.
And what are you referrring to in the Bible that states doctrine is a supernatural thing?

 

[Theo1689]

So what is sown? Is it the body in the earth? Is it the soul into the spirit realm?
And yes pronouns can be inferred, and it is possible that "it" is correct,

Again, you refuse to accept correction, and you demonstrate your complete ignorance of Biblical Greek.

(That's why you ignored my post, and refused to respond to it, right?)

Let's do a little quiz to prove both points, since you are apparently a glutton for punishment.

1) The Greek word, "eγειρεται" is found in 1 Cor. 15:42.
........ (a) What does "eγειρεται" mean?
........ (b) What does "eγειρη" mean?
........ (c) What does "eγειρομαι" mean?

You (if you knew anything about Greek) would probably say they all mean, "raised". Funny thing how they can all mean the same thing when they have different forms.

Here are the correct answers:

........ (1a) What does "eγειρεται" mean? Answer: "he/she/it is raised."
........ (b) What does "eγειρη" mean? Answer: "You (singular) are raised."
........ (c) What does "eγειρομαι" mean? Answer: "I am raised."

Once again, the verb form (ie. "inflection") has the "person" built into it. EXPLICITLY.
The "it" is not "implied", it is EXPLICIT.

And you would know this if you ever took an INTRODUCTORY course in Koine Greek.

 

[Theo1689]

So what is sown? Is it the body in the earth? Is it the soul into the spirit realm?

And here is this poster again, who constantly claims he is an "expert" in English comprehension, who claims he never has to consult an "English teacher", but anyone who disagrees with his opinions has to "consult with an English teacher you trust".

We're talking about 1 Cor. 15.

The word, "soul" isn't found ANYWHERE in 1 Cor. So why would a pronoun refer to "soul", something Paul NEVER mentioned anywhere in that epistle?!

Apparently, this poster doesn't understand how pronouns work. Pronouns refer to an antecedent, which is previously mentioned. It usually needs to be immediately proximal to the pronoun, so there is no ambiguity.

For instance, you might say, "Bill is pitching today. He has a strong arm." "He" is the pronoun, and the antecedent is "Bill".

Bu you really wouldn't want to say, "Bill, Fred, and Bob are playing today. He has a good arm.", since there is ambiguity about who "he" is referring to. You might instead say, "Bill, Fred, and Bob are playing today. Fred is a good player. He has a good arm."

Now, let's turn to 1 Cor. 15, as it's really not a difficult text at all.

1Cor. 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Cor. 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

So if it wasn't already obvious that the "it" in v.43 refers back to the "bodies" mentioned in v.40, then v.44 makes it explicitly clear.


And if this poster doubts this, he is encouraged to go to a local high school or college and ask an English teacher/professor he trusts... ? ? ?

Then maybe he can break out of his "stronghold".... ? ? ?

 

[Sethproton]

Again, you refuse to accept correction, and you demonstrate your complete ignorance of Biblical Greek.

(That's why you ignored my post, and refused to respond to it, right?)

Let's do a little quiz to prove both points, since you are apparently a glutton for punishment.

1) The Greek word, "eγειρεται" is found in 1 Cor. 15:42.
........ (a) What does "eγειρεται" mean?
........ (b) What does "eγειρη" mean?
........ (c) What does "eγειρομαι" mean?

You (if you knew anything about Greek) would probably say they all mean, "raised". Funny thing how they can all mean the same thing when they have different forms.

Here are the correct answers:

........ (1a) What does "eγειρεται" mean? Answer: "he/she/it is raised."
........ (b) What does "eγειρη" mean? Answer: "You (singular) are raised."
........ (c) What does "eγειρομαι" mean? Answer: "I am raised."

Once again, the verb form (ie. "inflection") has the "person" built into it. EXPLICITLY.
The "it" is not "implied", it is EXPLICIT.

And you would know this if you ever took an INTRODUCTORY course in Koine Greek.

Just to clarify EDIT insult

 

[Theo1689]

Just to clarify why I mostly ignore you. It is your attitude

So let me get this straight, Seth....

It's okay for YOU to claim others are "under a stronghold",
but it's not okay for us to say that to YOU?

It's okay for YOU to proclaim you're always right, and toss around the "if you don't believe me ask an English teacher you trust",
but it's an "attitude" for us to say it to YOU?!

It's not an "attitude" when YOU always respond to people who disagree with your OPINION that, "In case you don't understand", or "I've already explained this to you many times already"?

Double standards much, Seth?

Why don't you try actually addressing the FACTS (eg. that the subject is built into the verb), rather than simply running away and playing the victim?

 

[Theo1689]

Just to clarify why I mostly ignore you. It is your attitude

Yeah, it's nice that you have excuses for not dealing with the FACTS.

 

[Theo1689]

Again, you refuse to accept correction, and you demonstrate your complete ignorance of Biblical Greek.

[...]

Here are the correct answers:

........ (1a) What does "eγειρεται" mean? Answer: "he/she/it is raised."
........ (b) What does "eγειρη" mean? Answer: "You (singular) are raised."
........ (c) What does "eγειρομαι" mean? Answer: "I am raised."

I've said it before, and I guess I'll have to say it again.

Over and over, those who "claim" to understand Greek, but don't know the first thing, and think that all they have to do is look up words in "Strong's Lexicon", invariably try to CHANGE the meaning of what EVERY BIBLE TRANSLATION has ever said.

And those of us who have actually invested the effort of learning Greek, find out that our modern English translations are incredibly accurate.

 

[Sethproton]

I've said it before, and I guess I'll have to say it again.

Over and over, those who "claim" to understand Greek, but don't know the first thing, and think that all they have to do is look up words in "Strong's Lexicon", invariably try to CHANGE the meaning of what EVERY BIBLE TRANSLATION has ever said.

And those of us who have actually invested the effort of learning Greek, find out that our modern English translations are incredibly accurate.

What is interesting about this statement, Deleted for bickering

 

[Theo1689]

What is interesting about this statement, claiming the English translations are accurate, is the habit of this poster to twist the English into an unrecognizable mess so that it supports Calvinism.

<Chuckle>
I absolutely love how you Deleted for bickering

 

[Theo1689]

........ (1a) What does "eγειρεται" mean? Answer: "he/she/it is raised."
........ (b) What does "eγειρη" mean? Answer: "You (singular) are raised."
........ (c) What does "eγειρομαι" mean? Answer: "I am raised."

Once again, the verb form (ie. "inflection") has the "person" built into it. EXPLICITLY.
The "it" is not "implied", it is EXPLICIT.

... still waiting for you to address this, Seth....

 

[Sethproton]

I think what is sown is a combination of all that makes up our fallen life.



I would argue every statement has inferred things, it is unavoidable, yet I feel like I'm being pedantic.



Truth and error are associated with the Holy Spirit and demonic spirits in Scripture. If they were just "information" all we would need is data, but we don't just need "data." Faith and belief are supernatural things of the heart, and to equate them with mental information is just a spirit of unbelief, making the supernatural realm more normalized as a nature realm. Evil spirits entice, draw and twist people into beliefs that are abberent, God does not bless more intelligent people with the ability to figure out truth better, because they are smarter, but in fact, wants to guide us into the truth supernaturally. This is why I believe prayer is the best way to find more accurate truth over intellectual parsing of Biblical grammar, because Jesus opened the minds of his disciples, they did not open their own minds, nor did Jesus tell them to study grammar better. Understanding this has helped me realize why some people don't get what seems "obvious" to me, and it also keeps me humble, so I don't brag that my better "exegesis" is why I know more than others.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons (1Ti 4:1 NKJ)

that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, (Eph 4:14 NKJ)stood

I agree that the Spirit delivers truth to the world at large and to the church specifically. But delivered truth can often be understood by intellect.
The 10 commandments are good examples. The historical accounts are also intellectually understood.

There are deeper truths that can only be understood thru the spirit, but the most important truth can be understood by anyone. Christ died for sinners.

 

[guest1]

I agree that the Spirit delivers truth to the world at large and to the church specifically. But delivered truth can often be understood by intellect.
The 10 commandments are good examples. The historical accounts are also intellectually understood.

There are deeper truths that can only be understood thru the spirit, but the most important truth can be understood by anyone. Christ died for sinners.

Strange how your intellect believes Jesus died for sinners( 1/2) of the gospel equation and then the same intellect denies the other 1/2 of the gospel that He was raised from the dead bodily . Talk about an oxymoron.