The most important doctrine in Scripture- The bodily Resurrection of Jesus !

Sethproton

Well-known member
I'm going to call it a night here; it looks like it's getting good on the A/C Board. Recognizing inferences goes both ways Seth. As far as verses go, they exist. But I remember this topic on the old Forum going for at least 10 Threads in a row with each Thread having between 1, 000 - 1,500 posts in them...
Yes,enjoy.
But I will tell you one other verse that struck me. Perhaps someone else will benefit by it.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

John had seen Jesus after the resurrection, saw Him a few times, yet when asked what our resurrection body would be like he says he doesn't know.
Why doesn't John know? He saw Jesus off and on for 40 days after the resurrection.
The answer is that a spiritual body is not a flesh and blood body. Flesh and blood is not made for eternity. So the different bodies that John saw were just for the purpose of Jesus letting them know He came back to life, but according to John, it was not to show us what our eternal bodies will look like, only to assure us that He did indeed escape death.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Yes,enjoy.
But I will tell you one other verse that struck me. Perhaps someone else will benefit by it.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

John had seen Jesus after the resurrection, saw Him a few times, yet when asked what our resurrection body would be like he says he doesn't know.
Why doesn't John know? He saw Jesus off and on for 40 days after the resurrection.
The answer is that a spiritual body is not a flesh and blood body. Flesh and blood is not made for eternity. So the different bodies that John saw were just for the purpose of Jesus letting them know He came back to life, but according to John, it was not to show us what our eternal bodies will look like, only to assure us that He did indeed escape death.
That is also a good inference but it goes too far into speculation. There is no need to adjust a Flesh and Bone body to a disembodied Spirit after it's established by Jesus as a body. Israel will appear before God and see the one they Pierced, this is also a good inference which sides with Christ's Bodily Resurrection and his Bodily presence in Heaven. Since Spirits don't have a body of flesh, a Spirit doesn't have Mortal wounds for Israel to see...

Remember; we're being Gracious to one another and recognizing Inferences. I hope that continues but it can never be onesided...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That is also a good inference but it goes too far into speculation. There is no need to adjust a Flesh and Bone body to a disembodied Spirit after it's established by Jesus as a body. Israel will appear before God and see the one they Pierced, this is also a good inference which sides with Christ's Bodily Resurrection and his Bodily presence in Heaven. Since Spirits don't have a body of flesh, a Spirit doesn't have Mortal wounds for Israel to see...

Remember; we're being Gracious to one another and recognizing Inferences. I hope that continues but it can never be onesided...
You missed the point. After having seen Christ after the resurrection, seeing Him in a body, John states that He does not know what that body is like. Address that,

Also your phrase "disembodied spirit" means one of two things
1, You did not read what I said, as I never mentioned any disembodied spirit
2. You did read and intentionally made it look like I spoke of a disembodied spirit

Or is there a third? Why did you characterize my post that way?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You missed the point. After having seen Christ after the resurrection, seeing Him in a body, John states that He does not know what that body is like. Address that,
I didn't miss it, I said it was a good inference but went too far into Speculation; and I explained why. Please, let's not devolve to where we were in the old Forum. The Lurkers can tell that I didn't miss your point. When it's established that Jesus said he arose from the grave with a Flesh and Bone body, we need more than speculation to think he became a disembodied Spirit. Your inference makes a good point, but could you combine it with another Verse to show that Jesus stopped Tabernacling with us? Since Jesus will be seen again with his Mortal wounds, this is good inference that Jesus is still Tabernacling with us...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I didn't miss it, I said it was a good inference but went too far into Speculation; and I explained why. Please, let's not devolve to where we were in the old Forum. The Lurkers can tell that I didn't miss your point. When it's established that Jesus said he arose from the grave with a Flesh and Bone body, we need more than speculation to think he became a disembodied Spirit. Your inference makes a good point, but could you combine it with another Verse to show that Jesus stopped Tabernacling with us? Since Jesus will be seen again with his Mortal wounds, this is good inference that Jesus is still Tabernacling with us...
And yet you keep wanting to claim I spoke of a disembodied spirit?
How do you say you read my post and then intentionally misrepresent me?
There is no disembodied spirit with the resurrected Christ. At least stop misrepresenting what i say.
And I will make a separate post and respond to the issue you raised, shortly
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And yet you keep wanting to claim I spoke of a disembodied spirit?
How do you say you read my post and then intentionally misrepresent me?
There is no disembodied spirit with the resurrected Christ. At least stop misrepresenting what i say.
And I will make a separate post and respond to the issue you raised, shortly
Forgive me then. Please clarify, because I don't want to be taking on a Strawman...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I didn't miss it, I said it was a good inference but went too far into Speculation; and I explained why. Please, let's not devolve to where we were in the old Forum. The Lurkers can tell that I didn't miss your point. When it's established that Jesus said he arose from the grave with a Flesh and Bone body, we need more than speculation to think he became a disembodied Spirit. Your inference makes a good point, but could you combine it with another Verse to show that Jesus stopped Tabernacling with us? Since Jesus will be seen again with his Mortal wounds, this is good inference that Jesus is still Tabernacling with us...
About Jesus still tabernacling with us. 2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Compare the two words tent - our current body and building - our resurrection body.
tent -
skenos - a tent, including the taberbacle
building -
oikodome - in architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure

So for anyone to claim that the current body, the tent that is torn down, is the same one that becomes our resurrection building, which is from heaven. that is ignoring the meanings of these words
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Forgive me then. Please clarify, because I don't want to be taking on a Strawman...
I do appreciate the apology and I will not hold it against you.
Jesus was making the point that He was not a disembodied spirit, He was inhabiting a body.
Now I will agree with you and everyone else that the most difficult part of my position is when Jesus invited them to touch Him and specifically to touch the wounds. I have some ideas about what was going on, based on reconciling it with everything else we are taught about the new body, but let's just shelf that point for a moment, too avoid to much conjecture on my part and look at the other verses that teach something foreign to what we have all believed.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
About Jesus still tabernacling with us. 2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Compare the two words tent - our current body and building - our resurrection body.
tent -
skenos - a tent, including the taberbacle
building -
oikodome - in architecture, i.e. (concretely) a structure

So for anyone to claim that the current body, the tent that is torn down, is the same one that becomes our resurrection building, which is from heaven. that is ignoring the meanings of these words
That is one of your best inferences so far. Not even Civic and I would deny there's a difference in the Natural Body and the Glorified Body; but both are called bodies. Christ's Resurrection Body is a Flesh and Blood body, and it is a Glorified Body because he bears his Mortal wounds while enthroned in Heaven...
 

civic

Well-known member
Yes,enjoy.
But I will tell you one other verse that struck me. Perhaps someone else will benefit by it.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

John had seen Jesus after the resurrection, saw Him a few times, yet when asked what our resurrection body would be like he says he doesn't know.
Why doesn't John know? He saw Jesus off and on for 40 days after the resurrection.
The answer is that a spiritual body is not a flesh and blood body. Flesh and blood is not made for eternity. So the different bodies that John saw were just for the purpose of Jesus letting them know He came back to life, but according to John, it was not to show us what our eternal bodies will look like, only to assure us that He did indeed escape death.

A Literal, Physical Body​

God has said by the prophet Isaiah: “Unto Me every knee shall bow every tongue shall swear” (Isaiah 45:23).

The Apostle Paul quoting Isaiah, said: “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, ever knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God” (Romans 14:11). Then the Apostle adds: “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him (Jesus), and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow . . . and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:9-11).

Only a part of the human race has agreed with the testimony of God the Father which He has given concerning His Son. But at the final judgment, every unbeliever of every age will bow the knee that once he refused to bend, and confess with the tongue that once he refused to confess Christ with. Yes, literal knees and tongues of every Christ-rejecting sinner will bow and confess in utter humility the Christ they spurned and scoffed at here on earth.strauss

sithproton how can every man bow the knee and confess with their mouths/tongues Jesus is Lord if they have no body ?
 

civic

Well-known member
That is one of your best inferences so far. Not even Civic and I would deny there's a difference in the Natural Body and the Glorified Body; but both are called bodies. Christ's Resurrection Body is a Flesh and Blood body, and it is a Glorified Body because he bears his Mortal wounds while enthroned in Heaven...
Amen !
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
That is one of your best inferences so far. Not even Civic and I would deny there's a difference in the Natural Body and the Glorified Body; but both are called bodies. Christ's Resurrection Body is a Flesh and Blood body, and it is a Glorified Body because he bears his Mortal wounds while enthroned in Heaven...
So I gave you two verses and in both cases you agreed that I was making a valid point. So here's more.
1 Cor 15:50 ... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
2 Cor 5:16 ...even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Heb 2:7+9 both say But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,


All three of these are based on the truth that flesh is temporary and does not go to heaven.
I know that people have developed the idea of glorified bodies, the old one juiced up for heaven, but nowhere is that spoken of in the Bible.
But we do know that flesh does not go to heaven, and that whatever Christ's resurrected body is like, ours will be too.
Also, in reference to 1 Cor 15:50 your post just stated that our resurrected bodies are flesh and blood, but that cannot inherit the Kingdom.
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
That is one of your best inferences so far. Not even Civic and I would deny there's a difference in the Natural Body and the Glorified Body; but both are called bodies. Christ's Resurrection Body is a Flesh and Blood body, and it is a Glorified Body because he bears his Mortal wounds while enthroned in Heaven...
Just a note, despite Civic saying amen to your post, he does not believe that Christ's resurrection body was flesh and blood. Ask him.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So I gave you two verses and in both cases you agreed that I was making a valid point. So here's more.
1 Cor 15:50 ... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
2 Cor 5:16 ...even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Heb 2:7+9 both say But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus,


All three of these are based on the truth that flesh is temporary and does not go to heaven.
I know that people have developed the idea of glorified bodies, the old one juiced up for heaven, but nowhere is that spoken of in the Bible.
But we do know that flesh does not go to heaven, and that whatever Christ's resurrected body is like, ours will be too.
I didn't say you were making a valid point, I don't want the Lurkers to think I ever said that. I said you were making good inferences. To be valid, they need a little bit more; something that would be a good reason to think that after Jesus said he has a body of flesh and bone, he would ever stop having a body of flesh and bone. If you are saying that Jesus has a flesh and bone body, then I think the discussion has concluded in our agreement...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I didn't say you were making a valid point, I don't want the Lurkers to think I ever said that. I said you were making good inferences. To be valid, they need a little bit more; something that would be a good reason to think that after Jesus said he has a body of flesh and bone, he would ever stop having a body of flesh and bone. If you are saying that Jesus has a flesh and bone body, then I think the discussion has concluded in our agreement...
So far, you have not entered into any discussion at all about the verses I am showing you, other than so say "good inference"
Why not? There are more verses that are teaching the same ideas. If you choose to discuss the three posts i gave you and those verses and comments, I would be happy to show you more.
Mainly, the point would be for you to explain specific to each verse, why the verses do not actually teach what i am saying they teach,
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So far, you have not entered into any discussion at all about the verses I am showing you, other than so say "good inference"
Why not? There are more verses that are teaching the same ideas. If you choose to discuss the three posts i gave you and those verses and comments, I would be happy to show you more.
Mainly, the point would be for you to explain specific to each verse, why the verses do not actually teach what i am saying they teach,
Maybe later. I have bouts of energy loss...
 

Revelator

Member
Which is at the heart and center of the Gospel Message.
Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17
Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.

Which is at the heart and center of the Gospel Message.

Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17

Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.

Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (Timothy 2:5) post ascension.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.


In Heaven....Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).

His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.

If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.

hope this helps !!!

Really? You preach a different Gospel that Jesus' and the one he SAID his true followers would be preaching in our time?
Don't you even deny he even DIED- that it "was just the body"?
Do you deny that flesh and blood (humans) cannot inherit the Kingdom- since it is in Heaven, where SPIRIT beings (God, Christ and angels) dwell?
Is he REALLY a 'Godman-Without- Blood'?
Do you deny that he was raised to Heaven a "Life-Giving SPIRIT"?

Who on Earth were you trying to 'HELP'?
 
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