The most important doctrine in Scripture- The bodily Resurrection of Jesus !

While Moses was alive, the Mediator had not yet done the mediation. That was accomplished in His blood at His death, once for all time. He mediated the new covenant in His own blood. Once it was in place, He sat down with the Father.
But you understand that Christ Jesus existed and was Moses Mediator dont you ? I know His death was yet future, but He still was in existence, in heaven ! Do you believe that ?
 
While Moses was alive, the Mediator had not yet done the mediation. That was accomplished in His blood at His death, once for all time. He mediated the new covenant in His own blood. Once it was in place, He sat down with the Father.
So do you believe that men Christ would die for, the OT Saints did not already benefit savingly, before Christ actually came and died ?
 
But you understand that Christ Jesus existed and was Moses Mediator dont you ? I know His death was yet future, but He still was in existence, in heaven ! Do you believe that ?
Yes, Christ is eternal God, always existing, but it was as a man that He was our mediator. SO when I say that He was Moses' Mediator, I do not mean while Moses walked the earth but that the man Jesus was the Mediator for all of mankind.
 
seth

Yes, Christ is eternal God, always existing

Even though that is True[Christ is God], His being Mediator isnt as God, His Mediaton is as the Man Christ Jesus, between Man and God. God is not a Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
 
So do you believe that men Christ would die for, the OT Saints did not already benefit savingly, before Christ actually came and died ?
As far as benefit, in faith they looked forward without knowing what He was going to do to save them, but their faith was counted as righteousness. They would have been unable to articulate that Christ would mediate a covenant in His blood, but by faith He was their Savior and when He died, His blood covered them, and allowed Him to mediate the new covenant on their behalf.
Just to clarify again. a mediator is the person in court who brings the two parties to an agreement so they can come unified before the judge. His blood, unified us with God.
 
seth
SO when I say that He was Moses' Mediator, I do not mean while Moses walked the earth but that the man Jesus was the Mediator for all of mankind.
So do you mean that Moses had no Mediator in existence, while he himself lived on earth ?
 
seth



Even though that is True[Christ is God], His being Mediator isnt as God, His Mediaton is as the Man Christ Jesus, between Man and God. God is not a Mediator 1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Exactly
 
seth

So do you mean that Moses had no Mediator in existence, while he himself lived on earth ?
Right, the New Covenant had not yet been mediated. I find people have some confusion about that part of Christ's work.
While our Mediator has existed eternally, He did not do His mediation until He died, and offered His blood to the Father Judge.
 
As far as benefit, in faith they looked forward without knowing what He was going to do to save them, but their faith was counted as righteousness. They would have been unable to articulate that Christ would mediate a covenant in His blood, but by faith He was their Savior and when He died, His blood covered them, and allowed Him to mediate the new covenant on their behalf.
Just to clarify again. a mediator is the person in court who brings the two parties to an agreement so they can come unified before the judge. His blood, unified us with God.
So wasnt Christ Blood just as good as having been already shed[before God] since its written He was slain [past tense] from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

when He died, His blood covered them,

So His Blood didnt cover them before He died ? What was David the old testament Saint talking about here then Ps 32:1

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
 
Interesting question. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, Jesus the mediator of the new. Adam existed before either covenant, so he would n

The definition of a mediator would help in this discussion. It is the person who helps the two parties at court to come to an agreement before they appear before the judge.
Moses was the Old Covenant mediator. Jesus was the New Covenant mediator.
Once a covenant is in place, the mediator's job is over
Well you are directly contradicting the Scriptures with your earthly understanding and reasoning

Scripture states there IS One God(present tense) and there IS One Mediator(present tense) between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. This is post Resurrection/Ascension when this was written decades after Jesus died. Basic grammar below reveals you cannot be right as the present tense is being used below in these passages.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Hebrews 9:15-19

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

So Jesus IS not was the Mediator between God and man. He ever lives to make intercession.

Hebrews 7:22-25
Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

You are free to believe whatever you want but I will stick to these Scripture which declare that He is our PRESENT Mediator and High Priest of the New Covenant which is still in effect until the Resurrection.

hope this helps !!!
 
So wasnt Christ Blood just as good as having been already shed[before God] since its written He was slain [past tense] from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



So His Blood didnt cover them before He died ? What was David the old testament Saint talking about here then Ps 32:1

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
I would not disagree that Moses was justified by faith, before Christ ever died. I am not arguing against that. But mediation took place while Jesus was a man, after He died. Do you agree that Christ mediated the covenant in His own blood after He died? And I would add that after the covenant was mediated and in place, His role as Mediator ended. He did it once for all time.
As far as David writing that sin was covered, that means hidden. The sacrifices of the OT law were not meant for eternal forgiveness. Those sacrifices spoke of Christ's work, and they "covered" believers until Christ could erase sin.
 
Right, the New Covenant had not yet been mediated. I find people have some confusion about that part of Christ's work.
While our Mediator has existed eternally, He did not do His mediation until He died, and offered His blood to the Father Judge.
I disagree that the New Covenant had not yet been Mediate. Before the New Covenant was made manifest, it was the Everlasting Covenant. In other words, the New Covenant is the establishment of the Everlasting Covenant in time, but the everlasting covenant was before time, based upon the Blood of Christ that would be shed in time Heb 13 20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Thats when Christ the Mediator became Surety of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 7 22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

So Mediator and Surety are the same Office for Christ, and if a Covenant was made before time, Christ was performing His work of a Mediator before time !


He did not do His mediation until He died

I believe thats inaccurate

He began His work before He died, but that part of His work would be in time. However He was Mediating for Men before that time.
 
I disagree that the New Covenant had not yet been Mediate. Before the New Covenant was made manifest, it was the Everlasting Covenant. In other words, the New Covenant is the establishment of the Everlasting Covenant in time, but the everlasting covenant was before time, based upon the Blood of Christ that would be shed in time Heb 13 20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Thats when Christ the Mediator became Surety of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 7 22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

So Mediator and Surety are the same Office for Christ, and if a Covenant was made before time, Christ was performing His work of a Mediator before time !




I believe thats inaccurate

He began His work before He died, but that part of His work would be in time. However He was Mediating for Men before that time.
Can you show in scripture that Christ mediating with His blood was happening before He became a man?
 
seth

. But mediation took place while Jesus was a man, after He died.

I disagree with that. His death took place in time, but not His Mediation work !

Do you agree that Christ mediated the covenant in His own blood after He died?

Before and After He died, He was setup as Surety/Mediator before He died.

And I would add that after the covenant was mediated and in place, His role as Mediator ended. He did it once for all time.

I disagree with this too, that His role as Mediator ended, that contradicts 1 Tim 1:5 and 1 Jn 2 1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Now, His death role He did it once and for all time !
 
Can you show in scripture that Christ mediating with His blood was happening before He became a man?
What does 1 Tim 2 5 say ? It says He is Mediator between God and Man, so as long as Man existed, He was Mediator. Men had Faith in His Blood before His Incarnation didnt they ?
 
seth



I disagree with that. His death took place in time, but not His Mediation work !



Before and After He died, He was setup as Surety/Mediator before He died.



I disagree with this too, that His role as Mediator ended, that contradicts 1 Tim 1:5 and 1 Jn 2 1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Now, His death role He did it once and for all time !
Are you making no distinction between those two court terms mediator and advocate? Christ is both, but the jobs are separate. Remember that it is not Christ who is the mediator of the old covenant, but Moses.
Clarify and separate the two roles. In court your advocate is not your mediator. Those are different jobs with different purposes. Words have meaning, and if we want to understand what is being taught, we have to accept the meanings of words.
 
What does 1 Tim 2 5 say ? It says He is Mediator between God and Man, so as long as Man existed, He was Mediator. Men had Faith in His Blood before His Incarnation didnt they ?
1 TIM 2:5 says the mediator is the Man Christ Jesus. How does that allow the doctrine that Jesus was mediating before He was a man?
 
1 TIM 2:5 says the mediator is the Man Christ Jesus. How does that allow the doctrine that Jesus was mediating before He was a man?
And you deny He is a man now with a human body in heaven as 1 Timothy 2:5 teaches. that is also a denial of the Gospel at its heart is the Bodily Resurrection/Ascension of Jesus. So Paul says if Christ is nor Risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins as per 1 Corinthians 15.

hope this helps !!!
 
Which is at the heart and center of the Gospel Message.

Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17

Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.

Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (Timothy 2:5) post ascension.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.


In Heaven....Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).

His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.

If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.

hope this helps !!!
I don't disagree with you. I would say that when considering all Christian doctrines, the evidence is the Trinity doctrine is the most important. I say that because according to Trinitarianism it doesn't matter if someone 'believes' in Jesus' sinless Life, his miracles, his teachings, his shed blood, his crucifixion, his burial, his resurrection, and his ascension. In Christianity, the doctrine of Trinity saves - Jesus is just a by-product. And that's the truth.

Trinitarians call unitarians heretics, apostates, blasphemers, accusing them of not being Christian - passing judgment saying they are condemned.
 
Which is at the heart and center of the Gospel Message.

Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17

Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.

Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (Timothy 2:5) post ascension.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.


In Heaven....Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).

His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.

If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.

hope this helps !!!
Think that His atoning death and resurrection same thing, as needed both to happen!
 
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