The natural man cannot receive the gospel !

T

TomFL

Guest
Th
tom


Its the whole context:

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
That does not say the gospel was hidden or incapable of being understood

Naturally you did not address the scriptures which would raise objections to your claim

 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Th

That does not say the gospel was hidden or incapable of being understood

Naturally you did not address the scriptures which would raise objections to your claim

Its all about the Gospel friend, the Cross ! Man naturally cant receive the message of it.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Its all about the Gospel friend, the Cross ! Man naturally cant receive the message of it.
You don't have a gospel which corresponds to the biblical one

but

 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You don't have a gospel which corresponds to the biblical one

but

You believe scripture right ?
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Its all about the Gospel friend, the Cross ! Man naturally cant receive the message of it.
The natural man can't receive the gospel only because he's blocked from access to it or libertatianly doesn't want it. But if he hears it he can naturally libertatianly receive it.

God had to put a block in front of the Garden of Eden to stop Adam and Eve from naturally libertatianly going in to take of the tree of life and live forever. Man is deprived, not depraved.

Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, **lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever**:

Genesis 3:24 (KJV) So he drove out the man; and **he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims**, and a flaming sword which turned every way, **to keep the way of the tree of life**.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You believe scripture right ?
Which is why I don't believe you

13 reasons why men must be capable of understanding and believing scripture




first scripture shows men are regenerated made alive through faith

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

A dead man passed from death to life upon believing

John 5:25 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The dead who hear live

John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Dead men come to Christ to live

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Dead man believes that he might have life

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

dead man repents to have life

John 3:36 —ESV
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

again dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:47 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Second Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

third had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

fourth Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men

Mark 7:36 (ESV)
36 And Jesus charged them to tell no one. But the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mark 8:30 (ESV)
30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.
Mark 9:9 (ESV)
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luke 5:14 (ESV)
14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

sixth if man was born unable to believe truth jesus would not have told them to be like little children

Luke 18:17 —KJV
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”

Seventh God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
Eight You cannot receive the spirit without faith

John 7:38–39 —ESV

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Gal. 3:2 —ESV

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?”

Gal. 3:5 —ESV

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—”

Gal. 3:14 —ESV

“so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

Ninth the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

Tenth Men are not born darkened but become that way

Rom. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom. 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,

and bend their backs forever.”

Eph. 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

eleventh It is not that men cannot know truth but that they suppress the truth

Rom. 1:18 —ESV

“¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Twelve God enables faith through his word

John 6:65 —NIV11-GK

“He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.””

John 6:45 —NIV11-GK

“It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.”

Obviously it must be understood

Thirteen

The law is a school master if man was unable to respond to truth the law would have no function

Galatians 3:24 (KJV 1900)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified

You are in error
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The natural man can't receive the gospel only because he's blocked from access to it or libertatianly doesn't want it. But if he hears it he can naturally libertatianly receive it.

God had to put a block in front of the Garden of Eden to stop Adam and Eve from naturally libertatianly going in to take of the tree of life and live forever. Man is deprived, not depraved.

Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, **lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever**:

Genesis 3:24 (KJV) So he drove out the man; and **he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims**, and a flaming sword which turned every way, **to keep the way of the tree of life**.
He cant receive it because hes a natural man, dead in sin, dead to God.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Which is why I don't believe you

13 reasons why men must be capable of understanding and believing scripture




first scripture shows men are regenerated made alive through faith

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

A dead man passed from death to life upon believing

John 5:25 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The dead who hear live

John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Dead men come to Christ to live

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Dead man believes that he might have life

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

dead man repents to have life

John 3:36 —ESV
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

again dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:47 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Second Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

third had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

fourth Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men

Mark 7:36 (ESV)
36 And Jesus charged them to tell no one. But the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mark 8:30 (ESV)
30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.
Mark 9:9 (ESV)
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luke 5:14 (ESV)
14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

sixth if man was born unable to believe truth jesus would not have told them to be like little children

Luke 18:17 —KJV
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”

Seventh God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
Eight You cannot receive the spirit without faith

John 7:38–39 —ESV

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Gal. 3:2 —ESV

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?”

Gal. 3:5 —ESV

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—”

Gal. 3:14 —ESV

“so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

Ninth the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

Tenth Men are not born darkened but become that way

Rom. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom. 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,

and bend their backs forever.”

Eph. 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

eleventh It is not that men cannot know truth but that they suppress the truth

Rom. 1:18 —ESV

“¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Twelve God enables faith through his word

John 6:65 —NIV11-GK

“He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.””

John 6:45 —NIV11-GK

“It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.”

Obviously it must be understood

Thirteen

The law is a school master if man was unable to respond to truth the law would have no function

Galatians 3:24 (KJV 1900)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified

You are in error
If you believe scripture the way you say you do, then believe this, 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

May I elaborate some here. This scripture informs us that the carnal mind is at odds with, it goes backwards from God, and to top it off it CANT be subject to the Law of God, or simply stated God. Nor can it be subject to Gods Gospel in Christ, and why do I say that ? Because of the word law. Its meaning is:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
  1. of any law whatsoever
    1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God
      1. by the observance of which is approved of God
    2. a precept or injunction
    3. the rule of action prescribed by reason
  2. of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
  3. the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
  4. the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

    Notice the word denotes a command. The Gospel Call is a command to be obeyed, thats why Paul said of it Rom 10:16

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? This word obeyed means:

    to obey, be obedient to, submit to

    Paul is reiterating what he wrote back up in Rom 10:3

    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

  5. What is the Righteousness of God they have not submitted themselves to ? Its the Gospel, wherein the Righteousness of God is revealed Rom 1:16-17

  6. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

  7. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

  8. Now many of the jews Paul preached to would not submit to this righteousness of God Pauls preached Gospel revealed.

    The word submitted in Rom 10:3 is the greek word
    hypotassō:
    1. to arrange under, to subordinate
    2. to subject, put in subjection
    3. to subject one's self, obey
    4. to submit to one's control
    5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
    6. to obey, be subject81

      And its the very same word Paul uses in Rpm 8:7 when he writes the carnal mind will not and cannot be subject to the Law of God.

      So this is evidence that the carnal mind cannot obey the Gospel command to believe on the Name of the Son of God, for it is a Command 1 Jn 3:23

      23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

      That word commandment means:

      an injunction, order, command

      Those words define exactly what the word law means as I showed earlier !
      So if anyone preaches that the carnal mind, unregenerate man or women can believe the Gospel, they do lie and speak not the truth !
 
T

TomFL

Guest
You believe scripture right ?
Which is why I don't believe you

13 reasons why men must be capable of understanding and believing scripture




first scripture shows men are regenerated made alive through faith

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

A dead man passed from death to life upon believing

John 5:25 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The dead who hear live

John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Dead men come to Christ to live

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Dead man believes that he might have life

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

dead man repents to have life

John 3:36 —ESV
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

again dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:47 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Second Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

third had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

fourth Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men

Mark 7:36 (ESV)
36 And Jesus charged them to tell no one. But the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mark 8:30 (ESV)
30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.
Mark 9:9 (ESV)
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luke 5:14 (ESV)
14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

sixth if man was born unable to believe truth jesus would not have told them to be like little children

Luke 18:17 —KJV
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”

Seventh God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
Eight You cannot receive the spirit without faith

John 7:38–39 —ESV

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Gal. 3:2 —ESV

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?”

Gal. 3:5 —ESV

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—”

Gal. 3:14 —ESV

“so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

Ninth the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

Tenth Men are not born darkened but become that way

Rom. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom. 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,

and bend their backs forever.”

Eph. 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

eleventh It is not that men cannot know truth but that they suppress the truth

Rom. 1:18 —ESV

“¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Twelve God enables faith through his word

John 6:65 —NIV11-GK

“He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.””

John 6:45 —NIV11-GK

“It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.”

Obviously it must be understood

Thirteen

The law is a school master if man was unable to respond to truth the law would have no function

Galatians 3:24 (KJV 1900)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified

You are in error

Brightflame52

If you believe scripture the way you say you do, then believe this, 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

As you were told it does not mention the gospel and ignores context which shows it is the deeper, hidden things in the mind of God which are revealed through the Spirit

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Not the already revealed and propagated gospel which is bearing fruit all over the world

Your interpretation is clearly contrary to the whole council of God

See scriptures above you ignored as well as the near context

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
" Kampioen
The natural man can't receive the gospel only because he's blocked from access to it or libertatianly doesn't want it. But if he hears it he can naturally libertatianly receive it.
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God had to put a block in front of the Garden of Eden to stop Adam and Eve from naturally libertatianly going in to take of the tree of life and live forever. Man is deprived, not depraved.
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Genesis 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, **lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever**:
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Genesis 3:24 (KJV) So he drove out the man; and **he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims**, and a flaming sword which turned every way, **to keep the way of the tree of life**."

He cant receive it because hes a natural man, dead in sin, dead to God.
God had to block the natural man Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden so they couldn't return and eat of the tree of life and gain eternal life.(Gen 3:24,26)

So Gen 3:25,26 proves the natural man can naturally chose the gospel and eternal life. So you have been debunked.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Which is why I don't believe you

13 reasons why men must be capable of understanding and believing scripture




first scripture shows men are regenerated made alive through faith

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

A dead man passed from death to life upon believing

John 5:25 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

The dead who hear live

John 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Dead men come to Christ to live

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Dead man believes that he might have life

Acts 11:18 —ESV
“When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.””

dead man repents to have life

John 3:36 —ESV
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

again dead man believes to receive life that is eternal

John 6:47 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.”

Second Men needed to be hardened so they could not believe

John 12:40 —KJV
“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.”

third had men not hardened themselves they could have believed

Acts 28:27 —KJV
“For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

fourth Jesus spoke to men in parables to prevent their understanding

Matt. 13:10–14 —KJV
“And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:”

fifth Jesus found it necessary to his identity from men

Mark 7:36 (ESV)
36 And Jesus charged them to tell no one. But the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Mark 8:30 (ESV)
30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.
Mark 9:9 (ESV)
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, he charged them to tell no one what they had seen, until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luke 5:14 (ESV)
14 And he charged him to tell no one, but “go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”

sixth if man was born unable to believe truth jesus would not have told them to be like little children

Luke 18:17 —KJV
“Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”

Seventh God's word says it is sufficient

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
Eight You cannot receive the spirit without faith

John 7:38–39 —ESV

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”

Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Gal. 3:2 —ESV

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?”

Gal. 3:5 —ESV

“Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—”

Gal. 3:14 —ESV

“so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”

Ninth the bible speaks of others believing through personal witness

John 1:7 —ESV

“He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.”

John 17:20 —ESV

“¶ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,”

2 Th. 1:10 —ESV

“when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.”

John 4:39 ¶ Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.”

Tenth Men are not born darkened but become that way

Rom. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom. 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,

and bend their backs forever.”

Eph. 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

eleventh It is not that men cannot know truth but that they suppress the truth

Rom. 1:18 —ESV

“¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

2Th. 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Twelve God enables faith through his word

John 6:65 —NIV11-GK

“He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.””

John 6:45 —NIV11-GK

“It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.”

Obviously it must be understood

Thirteen

The law is a school master if man was unable to respond to truth the law would have no function

Galatians 3:24 (KJV 1900)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified

You are in error



As you were told it does not mention the gospel and ignores context which shows it is the deeper, hidden things in the mind of God which are revealed through the Spirit

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Not the already revealed and propagated gospel which is bearing fruit all over the world

Your interpretation is clearly contrary to the whole council of God

See scriptures above you ignored as well as the near context

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
There's a problem my friend, to say one believes the scripture, when scripture says so plainly that the natural man does not and cannot receive the Gospel 1 Cor 2:14 then goes right ahead and promote that the natural man can receive and understand the Gospel.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
There's a problem my friend, to say one believes the scripture, when scripture says so plainly that the natural man does not and cannot receive the Gospel 1 Cor 2:14 then goes right ahead and promote that the natural man can receive and understand the Gospel.
There is a problem when your interpretation causes you to deny almost 40 verses by your interpretation of one

Hello your method of interpretation is not sound because it does not consider the whole council of God and simply takes snipets here and there you interpret in a fashion consistent with your theology while ignoring the whole biblical context

you do this over and over

 

Slyzr

Well-known member
where does the bible say the gospel means " die " ?

That is a complicated question.


omans 12:1 NIV - A Living Sacrifice - Therefore, I urge - Bible Gateway. A Living Sacrifice - Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. A Living Sacrifice - Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and.

The gospel is about death ......

Giving up ..... never to matter again.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

May I elaborate some here. This scripture informs us that the carnal mind is at odds with, it goes backwards from God, and to top it off it CANT be subject to the Law of God, or simply stated God. Nor can it be subject to Gods Gospel in Christ, and why do I say that ? Because of the word law. Its meaning is:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
  1. of any law whatsoever
    1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God
      1. by the observance of which is approved of God
    2. a precept or injunction
    3. the rule of action prescribed by reason
  2. of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
  3. the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
  4. the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

    Notice the word denotes a command. The Gospel Call is a command to be obeyed, thats why Paul said of it Rom 10:16

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? This word obeyed means:

    to obey, be obedient to, submit to

    Paul is reiterating what he wrote back up in Rom 10:3

    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

  5. What is the Righteousness of God they have not submitted themselves to ? Its the Gospel, wherein the Righteousness of God is revealed Rom 1:16-17

  6. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

  7. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

  8. Now many of the jews Paul preached to would not submit to this righteousness of God Pauls preached Gospel revealed.

    The word submitted in Rom 10:3 is the greek word
    hypotassō:
    1. to arrange under, to subordinate
    2. to subject, put in subjection
    3. to subject one's self, obey
    4. to submit to one's control
    5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
    6. to obey, be subject81

      And its the very same word Paul uses in Rpm 8:7 when he writes the carnal mind will not and cannot be subject to the Law of God.

      So this is evidence that the carnal mind cannot obey the Gospel command to believe on the Name of the Son of God, for it is a Command 1 Jn 3:23

      23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

      That word commandment means:

      an injunction, order, command

      Those words define exactly what the word law means as I showed earlier !
      So if anyone preaches that the carnal mind, unregenerate man or women can believe the Gospel, they do lie and speak not the truth !
So you think Jesus lied ?

Mark 1:15 (KJV)
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Your doctrine is false
 
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