The natural man vs the Spiritual man

Manfred

Active member
In 1 Cor Chapter 2, Paul states that when he first went to Corinth he went there in fear and trembling, having decided to go only with the power of the Spirit.
So he did not use eloquence or fancy words of wisdom when he shared the gospel message with them.

The point being that he did not want to convince the Corinthians that choosing Jesus was the best option for them, for he understood very well that the natural man cannot discern the Spiritual.

Jesus states in John 3 that rebirth is not a natural event, but Spiritual. That which is Spirit is spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh.

Paul writes in Gal 5 that the flesh is in enmity to the Spirit and the Spirit to the flesh.

Our will, is a fleshy fallen thing by which we choose to rebel. Anything we do in the flesh, is in opposition to the Spirit, so even if you think you choose to do well or good, it is not pleasing to God, those so-called righteous works done in the flesh, are as dirty rags to Him.

Free will proponents will have to explain Biblically, how they discerned the Gospel message with their fallen minds, and then make a desision to generate belief with their fallen self will, as the scriptures clearly show it is impossible to discern the gospel message using your fallen flesh, but that the Gospel is Spiritually discerned as per John 3. (If you believe I am twisting scripture the challenge is to prove how I am twisting it, otherwise do not use it as a snarky retort)

From my rebirth experience, a young man approached me while I was reading a book. He shared his testimony with me, and how God had dragged Him out of a life of drug abuse. He shared the Gospel of God's love and pointed to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
In that moment, God revealed this to my Spirit as absolute truth. I remember my flesh still rebelling, but the conviction from God was overwhelming, whilst at the same time I experienced love as I never had before.
God had brought my spirit from death to life. I knew as the Spirit lead me, that I needed to repent and call on the Name of the Lord.
It was only then that my flesh submitted, and when I was babtised, it was in obedience that I publickly acknowledged the death and burial of the old and that God had brought forth the new.

There was no free will choise involved at all in this experience. It was by revelation and by the Spirit of God that I was reborn, and not by mental knowledge or mental assent, which could only result in the self generated dead faith so many tares walk around with.
 
Our will, is a fleshy fallen thing by which we choose to rebel. Anything we do in the flesh, is in opposition to the Spirit, so even if you think you choose to do well or good, it is not pleasing to God, those so-called righteous works done in the flesh, are as dirty rags to Him.
This isn't entirely biblical. In Acts 10:2, Cornelius in his unsaved condition is described as "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always." As if to confirm this assessment, the angel who appears says to him in v. 4, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." Then, as if that's not enough, Peter after hearing why Cornelius sent for him, says "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (vv. 34-35)

Here we have three positive assessments of an unsaved man who had not even heard the gospel, from three different sources; 1) the narrator (Luke), 2) the angel, and 3) Peter. Luke and Peter both say that Cornelius feared God. Peter explicitly says that he "works righteousness." Luke explicitly calls him "devout."

As for your take on John 3, you should check out my thread about this topic and I think you will see why your interpretation doesn't really make the most sense of the passage. https://forums.carm.org/threads/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-again.1580/
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In 1 Cor Chapter 2, Paul states that when he first went to Corinth he went there in fear and trembling, having decided to go only with the power of the Spirit.
So he did not use eloquence or fancy words of wisdom when he shared the gospel message with them.

The point being that he did not want to convince the Corinthians that choosing Jesus was the best option for them, for he understood very well that the natural man cannot discern the Spiritual.

Jesus states in John 3 that rebirth is not a natural event, but Spiritual. That which is Spirit is spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh.

Paul writes in Gal 5 that the flesh is in enmity to the Spirit and the Spirit to the flesh.

Our will, is a fleshy fallen thing by which we choose to rebel. Anything we do in the flesh, is in opposition to the Spirit, so even if you think you choose to do well or good, it is not pleasing to God, those so-called righteous works done in the flesh, are as dirty rags to Him.

Free will proponents will have to explain Biblically, how they discerned the Gospel message with their fallen minds, and then make a desision to generate belief with their fallen self will, as the scriptures clearly show it is impossible to discern the gospel message using your fallen flesh, but that the Gospel is Spiritually discerned as per John 3. (If you believe I am twisting scripture the challenge is to prove how I am twisting it, otherwise do not use it as a snarky retort)

From my rebirth experience, a young man approached me while I was reading a book. He shared his testimony with me, and how God had dragged Him out of a life of drug abuse. He shared the Gospel of God's love and pointed to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
In that moment, God revealed this to my Spirit as absolute truth. I remember my flesh still rebelling, but the conviction from God was overwhelming, whilst at the same time I experienced love as I never had before.
God had brought my spirit from death to life. I knew as the Spirit lead me, that I needed to repent and call on the Name of the Lord.
It was only then that my flesh submitted, and when I was babtised, it was in obedience that I publickly acknowledged the death and burial of the old and that God had brought forth the new.

There was no free will choise involved at all in this experience. It was by revelation and by the Spirit of God that I was reborn, and not by mental knowledge or mental assent, which could only result in the self generated dead faith so many tares walk around with.
In 1Corinthians

We read of two types of wisdom An esarthly wisdom and the wisdom that comes from God

The earthly wisdom has no access to the mind of God

Then there is the wisdom which comes from God

This wisdom was revealed to God's holy prophets and apostles

This wisdom having been revealed was sufficient for salvation if one heeded it

To deny this sufficient is to deny the sufficiency of the word of God


John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 

Manfred

Active member
This isn't entirely biblical. In Acts 10:2, Cornelius in his unsaved condition is described as "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always."
As if to confirm this assessment, the angel who appears says to him in v. 4, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." Then, as if that's not enough, Peter after hearing why Cornelius sent for him, says "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (vv. 34-35)

Here we have three positive assessments of an unsaved man who had not even heard the gospel, from three different sources; 1) the narrator (Luke), 2) the angel, and 3) Peter. Luke and Peter both say that Cornelius feared God. Peter explicitly says that he "works righteousness." Luke explicitly calls him "devout."

As for your take on John 3, you should check out my thread about this topic and I think you will see why your interpretation doesn't really make the most sense of the passage. https://forums.carm.org/threads/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-again.1580/
This isn't entirely biblical. In Acts 10:2, Cornelius in his unsaved condition is described as "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always." As if to confirm this assessment, the angel who appears says to him in v. 4, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." Then, as if that's not enough, Peter after hearing why Cornelius sent for him, says "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (vv. 34-35)

Here we have three positive assessments of an unsaved man who had not even heard the gospel, from three different sources; 1) the narrator (Luke), 2) the angel, and 3) Peter. Luke and Peter both say that Cornelius feared God. Peter explicitly says that he "works righteousness." Luke explicitly calls him "devout."

As for your take on John 3, you should check out my thread about this topic and I think you will see why your interpretation doesn't really make the most sense of the passage. https://forums.carm.org/threads/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-again.1580/
Your assessment indicates that God was not drawing Cornelius to Him but rather that Cornelius was drawing God to Him.

Do you have other scriptures that we are able to draw God to us in a salvivic way.
5 Or do you think the scripture means nothing when it says, “The spirit that God caused to live within us has an envious yearning”?
 

Manfred

Active member
In 1Corinthians

We read of two types of wisdom An esarthly wisdom and the wisdom that comes from God

The earthly wisdom has no access to the mind of God

Then there is the wisdom which comes from God

This wisdom was revealed to God's holy prophets and apostles

This wisdom having been revealed was sufficient for salvation if one heeded it

To deny this sufficient is to deny the sufficiency of the word of God
So you prove my point. The earthly wisdom, (your fallen self will wisdom) has no access to God

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood
No it does not. Look at my argument again
Your Nah-ah, does not cut it. The gospel is spiritually discerned.

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood
My son was born again aged 7. How did he gain wisdom to first understand?
It was all God, even with Timothy and Cornelius, all God.
Or was God not involved at all? Please give your take on how God was not the one drawing, but that they were the ones drawing God.

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel
Correct, as per my post, faith received from God and not from your flesh.
If I understand you correctly your dead faith caused you to become alive? If not, why do the devils faith not cause them to become saved.
You do know that all Muslims believe in the person of Jesus Christ as do all RCC's Muslims, JW's etc etc. Why are their faith in Jesus not saving them?

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do
Yes, you see how it is allways God that achieves what He sets out to do, not you that achieve what you set out to do.

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
You yourself affirmed again with the scripture that it is the Power of God that is in the word. Without the power, Paul says you cannot discern the Spiritual otherwise they would never have crucified Jesus.

But no, your argument is the direct opposite. You are arguing that you have the power to have saving faith without the power of god enabling you to have saving faith.

This is not that difficult to understand.


Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
And, how does this help your case that your self will is a discerner of the will of God?
That scripture clearly shows that it is all God, and not your dead spirit.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
In 1 Cor Chapter 2, Paul states that when he first went to Corinth he went there in fear and trembling, having decided to go only with the power of the Spirit.
So he did not use eloquence or fancy words of wisdom when he shared the gospel message with them.

The point being that he did not want to convince the Corinthians that choosing Jesus was the best option for them, for he understood very well that the natural man cannot discern the Spiritual.

Jesus states in John 3 that rebirth is not a natural event, but Spiritual. That which is Spirit is spirit, and that which is flesh is flesh.

Paul writes in Gal 5 that the flesh is in enmity to the Spirit and the Spirit to the flesh.

Our will, is a fleshy fallen thing by which we choose to rebel. Anything we do in the flesh, is in opposition to the Spirit, so even if you think you choose to do well or good, it is not pleasing to God, those so-called righteous works done in the flesh, are as dirty rags to Him.

Free will proponents will have to explain Biblically, how they discerned the Gospel message with their fallen minds, and then make a desision to generate belief with their fallen self will, as the scriptures clearly show it is impossible to discern the gospel message using your fallen flesh, but that the Gospel is Spiritually discerned as per John 3. (If you believe I am twisting scripture the challenge is to prove how I am twisting it, otherwise do not use it as a snarky retort)

From my rebirth experience, a young man approached me while I was reading a book. He shared his testimony with me, and how God had dragged Him out of a life of drug abuse. He shared the Gospel of God's love and pointed to Jesus as Lord and Savior.
In that moment, God revealed this to my Spirit as absolute truth. I remember my flesh still rebelling, but the conviction from God was overwhelming, whilst at the same time I experienced love as I never had before.
God had brought my spirit from death to life. I knew as the Spirit lead me, that I needed to repent and call on the Name of the Lord.
It was only then that my flesh submitted, and when I was babtised, it was in obedience that I publickly acknowledged the death and burial of the old and that God had brought forth the new.

There was no free will choise involved at all in this experience. It was by revelation and by the Spirit of God that I was reborn, and not by mental knowledge or mental assent, which could only result in the self generated dead faith so many tares walk around with.
Welcome to CARM!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Your assessment indicates that God was not drawing Cornelius to Him but rather that Cornelius was drawing God to Him.

Do you have other scriptures that we are able to draw God to us in a salvivic way.
5 Or do you think the scripture means nothing when it says, “The spirit that God caused to live within us has an envious yearning”?
You are dodging the question raised by the story of Cornelius. Was Cornelius considered righteous before God, or wasn't he? Was considered devout, fearing God, and always praying to God, or wasn't he? Was he approved by God for doing those things, to the point that he was visited by an angel informing him that he was, or wasn't he? If the answer to all of those questions are positive, then there is something wrong with the basic premises which you have adopted in the OP.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
This isn't entirely biblical. In Acts 10:2, Cornelius in his unsaved condition is described as "a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always." As if to confirm this assessment, the angel who appears says to him in v. 4, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." Then, as if that's not enough, Peter after hearing why Cornelius sent for him, says "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." (vv. 34-35)

Here we have three positive assessments of an unsaved man who had not even heard the gospel, from three different sources; 1) the narrator (Luke), 2) the angel, and 3) Peter. Luke and Peter both say that Cornelius feared God. Peter explicitly says that he "works righteousness." Luke explicitly calls him "devout."

As for your take on John 3, you should check out my thread about this topic and I think you will see why your interpretation doesn't really make the most sense of the passage. https://forums.carm.org/threads/what-does-it-mean-to-be-born-again.1580/
Cornelius was regenerate......was a child of God. He just hadn't coverted yet.....thus God sending Peter to him.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom stated
In 1Corinthians

We read of two types of wisdom An earthly wisdom and the wisdom that comes from God

The earthly wisdom has no access to the mind of God

Then there is the wisdom which comes from God

This wisdom was revealed to God's holy prophets and apostles

This wisdom having been revealed was sufficient for salvation if one heeded it

To deny this sufficient is to deny the sufficiency of the word of God
Click to expand...
So you prove my point. The earthly wisdom, (your fallen self will wisdom) has no access to God

You miss the point of divine revelation

Is God's divine revelation insufficient to accomplish what he sent it for

Scripture says it is

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood
No it does not. Look at my argument again
Your Nah-ah, does not cut it. The gospel is spiritually discerned.

Your Nah-ah does not cut it

You have no argument in this post
You just denied John 20:31 and a host of other scripture

Tom previously


2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood



My son was born again aged 7. How did he gain wisdom to first understand?

Do you haver any proof Timothy was born again as a child or do you just assume it

However there is a big hole in your argument

One has to know the scriptures and be made wise previous to salvation

That shows the scriptures can be understood

and as regeneration is the onset of salvation as well as the fact I have posted multiple verses showing faith precedes regeneration the sufficiency of the word of God is affirmed


See signature link

You have been refuted


It was all God, even with Timothy and Cornelius, all God.
Or was God not involved at all? Please give your take on how God was not the one drawing, but that they were the ones drawing God.

That is a statement not proof of anything

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel
Click to expand...
Correct, as per my post, faith received from God and not from your flesh.
You have done nothing at all to show God irresistibly infuses faith in some and withholds it from others

You have not even provided a mechanism for it

The bible tells us regarding faith

Rom. 10:13–17 —ESV
“For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
¶ How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”

If I understand you correctly your dead faith caused you to become alive? If not, why do the devils faith not cause them to become saved.
You do know that all Muslims believe in the person of Jesus Christ as do all RCC's Muslims, JW's etc etc. Why are their faith in Jesus not saving them?
You do not need to understand me - understand the scriptures - see link

BTW there is no salvation offered to devils

What Muslims believe about Jesus is rather irrelevant as they are not trusting him for their salvation

Tom posted
Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do
Click to expand...
Yes, you see how it is allways God that achieves what He sets out to do, not you that achieve what you set out to do.

Hello he sent his gospel for knowledge and salvation you just deny it


John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”


Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Even the simple can understand God's word yet you deny it

Denying the sufficiency of the word of God

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
Click to expand...

You yourself affirmed again with the scripture that it is the Power of God that is in the word. Without the power, Paul says you cannot discern the Spiritual otherwise they would never have crucified Jesus.


That refered to knowledge that was hidden

1 Cor. 2:7–8 —ESV
“But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

Hello

that has now been revealed

But no, your argument is the direct opposite. You are arguing that you have the power to have saving faith without the power of god enabling you to have saving faith.


You are incorrect I have affirmed enabling God sent his word and his spirit

You argue for the insufficiency of the word of God

I argue for its sufficiency

The bible supports me

You however have not shown God irresistibly infuses faith in some and withholds it in others
nor have you provided a mechanism for it



Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
And, how does this help your case that your self will is a discerner of the will of God?
That scripture clearly shows that it is all God, and not your dead spirit.


What have you done with revelation

Hello

Why did God send prophets and apostles

God has revealed his will

You deny his revelation can be understood

and you are claiming the methods God chose to make himself and the plan of salvation known was insufficient and you there fore contradict God
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
Cornelius was regenerate......was a child of God. He just hadn't coverted yet.....thus God sending Peter to him.
According to Paul's sermon to the Greek philosophers at Mars Hill (who had rejected him), we all children of God, believers and unbelievers alike:

Acts 17:


26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth
all men every where to repent:
 

Manfred

Active member
who were you on the old forums ? thanks !
According to Paul's sermon to the Greek philosophers at Mars Hill (who had rejected him), we all children of God, believers and unbelievers alike:

Acts 17:


26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth
all men every where to repent:
Hi civic

JCiL here.... Nice to see you and Reverend RV are still here
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Cornelius was regenerate......was a child of God. He just hadn't coverted yet.....thus God sending Peter to him.
Any proof ?

Or are you just assuming the point

According to scripture regeneration is through faith in Christ and requires the indwelling of the Spirit neither of which were true of Cornelius at this time
 

Manfred

Active member
You are dodging the question raised by the story of Cornelius. Was Cornelius considered righteous before God, or wasn't he? Was considered devout, fearing God, and always praying to God, or wasn't he? Was he approved by God for doing those things, to the point that he was visited by an angel informing him that he was, or wasn't he? If the answer to all of those questions are positive, then there is something wrong with the basic premises which you have adopted in the OP.
As per Romans 1, there is a revelation in what can be seen in creation in that God is not a figment of the imagination, therefore no one is without excuse.

This revelation confirms God, but it does not confirm the gospel message which is spiritually discerned.
Even Job, who was a righteous man received full revelation at the end of his trial, when he declared, my ears have heard, but now my eyes have seen.

Are you claiming that Corneluis' righteousness was enough to ensure salvation, and that he was approved for salvation because he earned it?
Why then was Peter sent to him if it was enough?

What other queries do you have that you should be able to understand already?
 
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