The natural man vs the Spiritual man

Sethproton

Well-known member
No misinterpretation, testifying to the truth. The natural man cannot understand the things of God which the Gospel is. The Gospel is Spiritual truth. You didn't know that did you?
There are deeper truths that only the mature will listen to. The gospel is milk. You are gagging on meat.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I think then your argument must be that you are still a natural man because you certainly do not understand what you are reading
The Gospel is Spiritual, all of it, the natural man cannot understand Spiritual truth 1 Cor 2 14! Even the milk of the word is Spiritual in essence, so the natural man cannot understand it!
 

TomFL

Well-known member

No misinterpretation, testifying to the truth. The natural man cannot understand the things of God which the Gospel is. The Gospel is Spiritual truth. You didn't know that did you?

Scripture states otherwise

and you denigrate the word of God

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.



Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Scripture states otherwise

and you denigrate the word of God

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.



Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1 Cor 2:14 is scripture, I didnt find it in a comic book, hence the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, not even the things of God, which the Gospel is. The Gospel must be spiritually discerned, that's why its also the Gospel of the Kingdom, a Spiritual Kingdom ! Its for Spiritual subjects to discern !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1 Cor 2:14 is scripture, I didnt find it in a comic book, hence the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, not even the things of God, which the Gospel is. The Gospel must be spiritually discerned, that's why its also the Gospel of the Kingdom, a Spiritual Kingdom ! Its for Spiritual subjects to discern !
But your interpretation is not

One thing is certain if your interpretation is contrary to the analogy of faith it is an error

The analogy of faith contradicts you


John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.



Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

so your interpretation is wrong
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
But your interpretation is not

One thing is certain if your interpretation is contrary to the analogy of faith it is an error

The analogy of faith contradicts you


John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.



Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

so your interpretation is wrong
After all that, you still havent done away with 1 Cor 2:14 which states the natural man cannot know the things of God Also 1 Cor 2:11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
After all that, you still havent done away with 1 Cor 2:14 which states the natural man cannot know the things of God Also 1 Cor 2:11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
No need to do away with it for itb does not teach what you imagine

and as noted is contrary to the analogy of faith

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.



Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

so your interpretation is wrong
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
1 Cor 2:14 is scripture, I didnt find it in a comic book, hence the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, not even the things of God, which the Gospel is. The Gospel must be spiritually discerned, that's why its also the Gospel of the Kingdom, a Spiritual Kingdom ! Its for Spiritual subjects to discern !
Scripture there is plain and concise. To some it cannot be so, it is always "man is able," or always about man, putting man in a position that isn't Biblical, or they see mans ability trumping plain Scripture and seek out verses to pit against this truth. It is based on humanism not Biblical Christianity.
 

Manfred

Active member
Do I believe one can read the bible and know who Christ is

Yes i certainly do

So did John

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

He is inspired

are you going to say he was wrong
Answered and ignored

Here it is again
All of the book of John contains enough for God to reveal Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.
You have to contend with Jesus telling Peter that He being the Messiah was not revealed by flesh and blood but by His Father in heaven.

Otherwise you have to explain to us what makes you more special than others.
Before I was born again, I had read the book of John many times, and it is not because of reading the book of John that I believed. I believed because Jesus was revealed to me as Lord and Savior.
Were you saved after reading the book of John? Do you know of anyone who was, and if their testimony is that they believed without revelation.

If your faith is without revelation, then you have a dead faith. You may have a lot of knowledge, but no relationship.
What did John say

what did Paul say

2 Tim. 3:15 —ESV
“and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
Nothing there about scripture that gives you a dead self generated faith.
Is that the type of faith you have? It seems that you are not able to discern the scriptures in Spirit and truth, but rather you think you have it without the Spirit.

What does scripture sy of itself

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.
So? Read these scriptures with the Sovereignty of God in mind. Who accomplishes that? Surely it is not you because you are wise to understanding.
The word of God is Logos.
noun
noun: Logos
  1. 1.
    Theology
    the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ.


    Divine reason. You think you reason without Spirit and truth
That is not a refutation

If man could not understand why would God blind them so they would not see or understand

do you put a blindfold on those who could not see

see here as well

Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”
And what do you propose those passages mean. You did not even make an attempt. Even Acts 28:27
Do they understand with their minds or their hearts.

It is because you fail to spiritually discern the Word of God. You are trying to figure it out in the natural, when it is spiritually discerned.
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.

27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This glorifying of self is not a good fit on a Christian

Which of these are wrong

A. I gained enough intellectual information by reading the book of John that said information was enough to enable me to make an intellectual decision to generate belief that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God..... Glory to me for my intellectual decision.
B. While reading the book of John, the Spirit of God started convicting me in my heart, and He revealed to me, that by believing He would establish my faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...... Glory to God for revealing this to me therby enabling my heart to believe.

 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Not really

Your idea the gospel cannot be understood flies in the face of scripture

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 1:16 (KJV 1900)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV 1900)

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1 Corinthians 2 says with out the Spirit of God you cannot understand Spiritual things. Is the gospel a spiritual thing?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Answered and ignored

Here it is again
All of the book of John contains enough for God to reveal Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.
You have to contend with Jesus telling Peter that He being the Messiah was not revealed by flesh and blood but by His Father in heaven.

Otherwise you have to explain to us what makes you more special than others.
Before I was born again, I had read the book of John many times, and it is not because of reading the book of John that I believed. I believed because Jesus was revealed to me as Lord and Savior.
Were you saved after reading the book of John? Do you know of anyone who was, and if their testimony is that they believed without revelation.

If your faith is without revelation, then you have a dead faith. You may have a lot of knowledge, but no relationship.

Nothing there about scripture that gives you a dead self generated faith.
Is that the type of faith you have? It seems that you are not able to discern the scriptures in Spirit and truth, but rather you think you have it without the Spirit.


So? Read these scriptures with the Sovereignty of God in mind. Who accomplishes that? Surely it is not you because you are wise to understanding.
The word of God is Logos.
noun
noun: Logos
  1. 1.
    Theology
    the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ.


    Divine reason. You think you reason without Spirit and truth

And what do you propose those passages mean. You did not even make an attempt. Even Acts 28:27
Do they understand with their minds or their hearts.

It is because you fail to spiritually discern the Word of God. You are trying to figure it out in the natural, when it is spiritually discerned.
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.

27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This glorifying of self is not a good fit on a Christian

Which of these are wrong

A. I gained enough intellectual information by reading the book of John that said information was enough to enable me to make an intellectual decision to generate belief that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God..... Glory to me for my intellectual decision.
B. While reading the book of John, the Spirit of God started convicting me in my heart, and He revealed to me, that by believing He would establish my faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...... Glory to God for revealing this to me therby enabling my heart to believe.

Amen brother!
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Scripture there is plain and concise. To some it cannot be so, it is always "man is able," or always about man, putting man in a position that isn't Biblical, or they see mans ability trumping plain Scripture and seek out verses to pit against this truth. It is based on humanism not Biblical Christianity.
This discussion is an example of a spiritual stronghold. The one poster has one verse. He does not want to consider any other verse in the Bible, not even the immediate context. And you are touting this approach to Bible study.
 

civic

Well-known member
This discussion is an example of a spiritual stronghold. The one poster has one verse. He does not want to consider any other verse in the Bible, not even the immediate context. And you are touting this approach to Bible study.
the "stronghold" is on your mind as you deny the gospel and it has been veiled to your eyes as the god of this world has blinded you to the truth as per 2 Corinthians 4:4.

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Answered and ignored
No I do not believe so

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”


I will go with John



Here it is again
All of the book of John contains enough for God to reveal Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.
You have to contend with Jesus telling Peter that He being the Messiah was not revealed by flesh and blood but by His Father in heaven.
Yeah so that is revelation

Peter did not have a new testament to provide such information

How does Peter receiving witness from God the father shows the bible's testimony is insufficient

That is a total non sequitur
 
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