The New Covenant

Icyspark

Member
Let's take a look at the new covenant.

The promise of a new covenant is made in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Before the author of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah, he first details why there was a need for a new covenant in the first place (see vs 6-8):

Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.In the above passage I've highlighted (and color coded) some of the aspects of this prophecy which are relevant to drawing a correct conclusion about the new covenant. Let's go through the prophecy one verse at a time.
Verse 6
The author notes that the new covenant is superior to the old one. Why does he tell us this? Because he says that this new covenant is "established on better promises."

Ok, stop. Now, ask yourself a couple things. Does the God of the Bible ever make anything less than perfect promises? Can a perfect God make anything less than a perfect promise?

Verse 7
This verse also notes the fact that there was something "wrong with that first covenant," such that there was a need to establish a new one.

Verse 8
After taking into account what verse 6 said about "better promises," it is pretty easy to understand what verse 8 is saying. It tells us where the imperfect promises came from: "God found fault with the people."

What do you suppose these faulty promises were?

Exodus 19:8
The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

Exodus 24:3
When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.”

You may be wondering, "Are the people's promises to obey really the faulty promises to which the author of Hebrews was speaking? Let's just bypass the rest of verse 8 for a moment and look at verse 9. The LORD says the people "did not remain faithful to my covenant." Basically, the LORD provided a perfect set of laws for His chosen people. The people responded together, saying, "We will do everything the LORD has said. And later, in Exodus 24, "Everything the LORD has said we will do." But they didn't do what they promised to do. Thus, God found fault with them.

Please note, the LORD did not find fault with His perfect laws which were the foundation of the agreement between Himself and the people. The text is clear: "God found fault with the people."

Let's look at another aspect of what verse 8 tells us. It records the LORD as stating who the new covenant is for. "I will make a new covenant with the people of ISRAEL and with the people of JUDAH." This new covenant is ONLY with Israel and Judah. Gentiles are not mentioned as part of this covenant.

Verse 9 says this covenant will be different from the one the LORD made with those He lead out of Egypt. Why? Again, "because they did not remain faithful to my covenant."

Verse 10
This verse echoes verse 8 in saying that the new covenant will be "with the people of Israel." No Gentiles mentioned here either. But then we come to an interesting point about this new covenant. The LORD says He is going to put His laws in the minds of His people and write them on their hearts. Consider again that the LORD is perfect and the laws He gave to the Israelites were likewise perfect. So why would you suppose that His perfect laws could get any more perfect than what they were to begin with? Why would the LORD need to compose a new set of laws to write on the hearts of His people?

The new covenant, I believe, is merely taking the faulty promises of the people out of the equation. It is no longer having laws written on stone tablets and having the people promise to keep them. Instead the LORD promises to write His laws on the fleshy tablets of human hearts. It is no longer "we will do." Now it is allowing the Spirit to live within us to do the law which He has written on our hearts. The law is internalized for those who truly love the LORD.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Let's take a look at the new covenant.

The promise of a new covenant is made in Jeremiah 31:31-34. Before the author of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah, he first details why there was a need for a new covenant in the first place (see vs 6-8):
Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.In the above passage I've highlighted (and color coded) some of the aspects of this prophecy which are relevant to drawing a correct conclusion about the new covenant. Let's go through the prophecy one verse at a time.
Verse 6
The author notes that the new covenant is superior to the old one. Why does he tell us this? Because he says that this new covenant is "established on better promises."

Ok, stop. Now, ask yourself a couple things. Does the God of the Bible ever make anything less than perfect promises? Can a perfect God make anything less than a perfect promise?

Verse 7
This verse also notes the fact that there was something "wrong with that first covenant," such that there was a need to establish a new one.

Verse 8
After taking into account what verse 6 said about "better promises," it is pretty easy to understand what verse 8 is saying. It tells us where the imperfect promises came from: "God found fault with the people."

What do you suppose these faulty promises were?
Exodus 19:8
The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.
Exodus 24:3
When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.”

You may be wondering, "Are the people's promises to obey really the faulty promises to which the author of Hebrews was speaking? Let's just bypass the rest of verse 8 for a moment and look at verse 9. The LORD says the people "did not remain faithful to my covenant." Basically, the LORD provided a perfect set of laws for His chosen people. The people responded together, saying, "We will do everything the LORD has said. And later, in Exodus 24, "Everything the LORD has said we will do." But they didn't do what they promised to do. Thus, God found fault with them.

Please note, the LORD did not find fault with His perfect laws which were the foundation of the agreement between Himself and the people. The text is clear: "God found fault with the people."

Let's look at another aspect of what verse 8 tells us. It records the LORD as stating who the new covenant is for. "I will make a new covenant with the people of ISRAEL and with the people of JUDAH." This new covenant is ONLY with Israel and Judah. Gentiles are not mentioned as part of this covenant.

Verse 9 says this covenant will be different from the one the LORD made with those He lead out of Egypt. Why? Again, "because they did not remain faithful to my covenant."

Verse 10
This verse echoes verse 8 in saying that the new covenant will be "with the people of Israel." No Gentiles mentioned here either. But then we come to an interesting point about this new covenant. The LORD says He is going to put His laws in the minds of His people and write them on their hearts. Consider again that the LORD is perfect and the laws He gave to the Israelites were likewise perfect. So why would you suppose that His perfect laws could get any more perfect than what they were to begin with? Why would the LORD need to compose a new set of laws to write on the hearts of His people?

The new covenant, I believe, is merely taking the faulty promises of the people out of the equation. It is no longer having laws written on stone tablets and having the people promise to keep them. Instead the LORD promises to write His laws on the fleshy tablets of human hearts. It is no longer "we will do." Now it is allowing the Spirit to live within us to do the law which He has written on our hearts. The law is internalized for those who truly love the LORD.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The eternal laws of God are to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and body, and Love your neighbor as yourself. The Ten Commandments were based on this, but did it really fulfill this perfect law?

Why would Jesus say that you have heard of old (10 Commandments) thou shalt not murder, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU not to hate your brethren.

You see the commandments of the New Covenant DO FULFILL the eternal laws of God, whereas the 10C were merely to guard us UNTIL Jesus came. Why? Because the 10C was to show us our sin that was in our nature. But Jesus came to take away the cause of sin, our carnal nature, and replace it with a nature that can truly LOVE, called the "divine nature." That is what it means to be born again.

The 10C had glory, but the laws of the Spirit in the New Covenant has more glory. Romans 7:13 shows the problem. Sin in our nature. 1 John 3:5 but Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin!!!!

Each covenant has a sign of the Covenant. The Old Covenant sign was the Sabbath to be kept physically by the letter of the law. Exodus 31:13. The letter kills but the Spirit brings life. Now those who believe in Jesus are given the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the eternal laws of LOVE are written on our hearts. We literally are no longer in the carnal nature, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. (Not everyone claiming to be a Christian has been born again.) Jesus did this through His BLOOD. That is why the sign of the New Covenant it the Cup, representing His cleansing blood. 1 Corinthians 11:25.
 

Icyspark

Member
The eternal laws of God are to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and body, and Love your neighbor as yourself. The Ten Commandments were based on this, but did it really fulfill this perfect law?


Hi CharismaticLady,

Merry Christmas!

I'd say what God wishes for His children is expressed in a pyramid:

Love
Love for God & man
The Ten Commandment Covenant
The other 603 decrees and laws written on paper​

Love, at the top of the pyramid is not left undefined. It goes down one level and adds that God expects that His creatures express their love to Him as well as to their neighbors. God drops it down another level and provides ten commandments which succinctly identify how our love should be manifest to God (the first four commands) and to man (the last six). Then He provided 603 additional decrees and laws which further delineated how humans should reveal love for God and love for their neighbor.

The Ten Commandments are unique in that God spoke them so that all the people at Mt. Sinai could hear them. He also "penned these "ten words" on stone with His own finger. This is the only time this happened. All the other decrees and laws He saw it was sufficient for Him to speak them to Moses and have him write them on paper.

The Ten were not meant to "fulfill" anything. They are the ideal set forth by God for how His humans are to live. The Ten Commandments are perfect. How can they be anything but perfect when they emanated from a perfect God?


Why would Jesus say that you have heard of old (10 Commandments) thou shalt not murder, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU not to hate your brethren.


This is not a rebuke of His own perfect law. Speaking of the Savior to come, Isaiah wrote: "The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Jesus did not come to "abolish the law." He magnified it. When you magnify something you don't diminish it, you make it bigger. Jesus expanded the scope of the law and provided spiritual insights for the beauty of His law.


You see the commandments of the New Covenant DO FULFILL the eternal laws of God, whereas the 10C were merely to guard us UNTIL Jesus came. Why? Because the 10C was to show us our sin that was in our nature. But Jesus came to take away the cause of sin, our carnal nature, and replace it with a nature that can truly LOVE, called the "divine nature." That is what it means to be born again.


This is the part I always find so fascinating with those who wish to diminish and/or remove the law which Jesus said He did "not come to abolish" but came to magnify. Why would Jesus magnify the scope of His perfect law only to abolish it, going exactly contrary to what He declared earlier? Don't think that fulfilling the law is somehow different from abolishing it. If Jesus could ever have adjusted His perfect law then He need not have died.

We are not "under the law" if Jesus Christ is in us. But the moment we eject Jesus Christ and commit transgression of His commandments, we put ourselves back under the condemnation of the law.

Think about it. If Jesus Christ is in us will we be embracing what Paul calls "the desires of the flesh"? No.

Romans 8:5-9
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

The key here is not removing God's law, but being governed by the Spirit of Christ. If the Spirit of Christ is in you, why would you suppose you cannot do those things pleasing to Him? Those who do not have Christ's Spirit "CANNOT please God."


The 10C had glory, but the laws of the Spirit in the New Covenant has more glory. Romans 7:13 shows the problem. Sin in our nature. 1 John 3:5 but Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin!!!!


I'm pretty sure you and I still sin. Sin is not something that you are, but rather something you do. Sin is the transgression of the law. You cannot claim to be a sinner if there is no law which identifies sin. If the law has been redacted, then there is no condemnation for anyone. All are effectively sinless. If all are sinless, then everyone goes to heaven with zero need of a Savior.

1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The above is another passage of Scripture which people who believe in a once forgiven, always forgiven status have a hard time assimilating into their biblical paradigm. What need is there for confession of sins (plural and implied on-going) if your past, present and future sins are all wiped out? If you're claiming you're not sinning then John says you're making Jesus out to be a liar and His word is not in you.


Each covenant has a sign of the Covenant. The Old Covenant sign was the Sabbath to be kept physically by the letter of the law. Exodus 31:13. The letter kills but the Spirit brings life. Now those who believe in Jesus are given the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the eternal laws of LOVE are written on our hearts. We literally are no longer in the carnal nature, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. (Not everyone claiming to be a Christian has been born again.) Jesus did this through His BLOOD. That is why the sign of the New Covenant it the Cup, representing His cleansing blood. 1 Corinthians 11:25.


I'd like to know what you believe these "eternal laws of LOVE are" which "are written on our hearts"? Usually I find that since people want to get rid of the Ten Commandments that they don't have any defined plurality of laws that are written on our hearts under the new covenant. It's generally a nebulous, undefined "love." If love is left undefined, whose are you to say what that love is? I can be a murderer and claim that I'm being loving. :oops: No one can say otherwise, otherwise they're being judgmental and unloving. A truly postmodern mindset.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Merry Christmas!

I'd say what God wishes for His children is expressed in a pyramid:

Love
Love for God & man
The Ten Commandment Covenant
The other 603 decrees and laws written on paper​
Love, at the top of the pyramid is not left undefined. It goes down one level and adds that God expects that His creatures express their love to Him as well as to their neighbors. God drops it down another level and provides ten commandments which succinctly identify how our love should be manifest to God (the first four commands) and to man (the last six). Then He provided 603 additional decrees and laws which further delineated how humans should reveal love for God and love for their neighbor.

The Ten Commandments are unique in that God spoke them so that all the people at Mt. Sinai could hear them. He also "penned these "ten words" on stone with His own finger. This is the only time this happened. All the other decrees and laws He saw it was sufficient for Him to speak them to Moses and have him write them on paper.

The Ten were not meant to "fulfill" anything. They are the ideal set forth by God for how His humans are to live. The Ten Commandments are perfect. How can they be anything but perfect when they emanated from a perfect God?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Sorry I didn't answer sooner. We had a suicide bomb go off in Nashville and took out ATT, so didn't have phone of internet (or 911) in three states for a while. We are back online now.

Your pyramid would be great for those before Christ, because that was the Old Covenant. We who are in Christ are under the New Covenant of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:6-11.

The eternal laws of Love of God are written on our hearts when we become born again. The only commandment that is not part of our nature is the Sabbath. That had to be kept physically and by the letter. It was a teaching method to recognize God as the Creator. Jesus is the Creator, and we can REST/TRUST in Him moment by moment and by the Spirit. The 7th day cannot be kept instinctually by the Spirit. You need a calendar and be taught. It is not part of our new nature. See the new commandments in 1 John 3:23 (read in context 1 John 3:21-24) and that believing in Jesus replaces the first 4 written commandments, and we obey them instinctively when we love Jesus with all our heart. The last 6 are kept by loving our neighbor. Those two commandments are the New Covenant, and can only be kept with the Spirit of God indwelling us. In other words, we must be born again. That is the main reason to be baptized in the Spirit.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
This is not a rebuke of His own perfect law. Speaking of the Savior to come, Isaiah wrote: "The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Jesus did not come to "abolish the law." He magnified it. When you magnify something you don't diminish it, you make it bigger. Jesus expanded the scope of the law and provided spiritual insights for the beauty of His law.

I agree. But that is not all. Romans 7:13 shows us that the law (10C) was holy, but the sin in us made it hard to keep. Our carnal nature was in opposition to the law. That is why Jesus came. Seeing as SIN was the problem, He took away SIN out of our nature so that with the Spirit of God replacing the flesh/the old carnal nature we would naturally (no longer in opposition) keep the expanded version of perfect LOVE. You see the Old Ten Commandments were just basic/surface/outward action commandments. The commandments of Jesus went to the core of us and could only be kept by the new addition to keeping the laws of God - the empowerment of the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ. The perfect eternal law of Love God with ALL your heart, mind and body, and Love your neighbor as yourself, could not be kept perfectly with sin in our nature producing hate and lust and sins of the flesh. That is why the whole covenant had to be replaced. With a new High Priest comes a change in the laws. Hebrews 7:12 " 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law."
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
This is the part I always find so fascinating with those who wish to diminish and/or remove the law which Jesus said He did "not come to abolish" but came to magnify. Why would Jesus magnify the scope of His perfect law only to abolish it, going exactly contrary to what He declared earlier? Don't think that fulfilling the law is somehow different from abolishing it. If Jesus could ever have adjusted His perfect law then He need not have died.

We are not "under the law" if Jesus Christ is in us. But the moment we eject Jesus Christ and commit transgression of His commandments, we put ourselves back under the condemnation of the law.

Think about it. If Jesus Christ is in us will we be embracing what Paul calls "the desires of the flesh"? No.

Romans 8:5-9Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
The key here is not removing God's law, but being governed by the Spirit of Christ. If the Spirit of Christ is in you, why would you suppose you cannot do those things pleasing to Him? Those who do not have Christ's Spirit "CANNOT please God."
I stand by what I said. What you don't understand is that the 10 Commandments did NOT fulfill the righteous requirements of the eternal law of to Love God with all your heart, mind and body, and love your neighbor as yourself. Those are the commandments that were not changed, but elevated. In the 10C you could still hate your neighbor, just not go so far as to kill him. You could lust after your neighbor's wife, just don't act on it. That weakness in the law due to the carnal flesh had to be replaced. The 10 C could never reach the level of the eternal law of Love.

The 10C had glory, but not as much glory as the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ. Romans 8:1-9 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-11. Jesus didn't nullify the laws we are to keep, He made them deeper - life changing. 1 John 3:23. So see your first assumption is wrong as far as what I believe. But right for some of the modern denominations of license to sin. That is a doctrine of demons for sure. I agree with you, far more than them! :) But you don't agree with the level of perfection I believe in.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I'd like to know what you believe these "eternal laws of LOVE are" which "are written on our hearts"? Usually I find that since people want to get rid of the Ten Commandments that they don't have any defined plurality of laws that are written on our hearts under the new covenant. It's generally a nebulous, undefined "love." If love is left undefined, whose are you to say what that love is? I can be a murderer and claim that I'm being loving. :oops: No one can say otherwise, otherwise they're being judgmental and unloving. A truly postmodern mindset.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
Ask yourself, in the parable, note that the Jews didn't break any of the 10C. This is why they didn't fulfill the eternal law of God as written.

Luke 10:27
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among [i]thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among [i]thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
 

Carol

Active member
Hi CharismaticLady,

Merry Christmas!

I'd say what God wishes for His children is expressed in a pyramid:

Love
Love for God & man
The Ten Commandment Covenant
The other 603 decrees and laws written on paper​

Love, at the top of the pyramid is not left undefined. It goes down one level and adds that God expects that His creatures express their love to Him as well as to their neighbors. God drops it down another level and provides ten commandments which succinctly identify how our love should be manifest to God (the first four commands) and to man (the last six). Then He provided 603 additional decrees and laws which further delineated how humans should reveal love for God and love for their neighbor.

The Ten Commandments are unique in that God spoke them so that all the people at Mt. Sinai could hear them. He also "penned these "ten words" on stone with His own finger. This is the only time this happened. All the other decrees and laws He saw it was sufficient for Him to speak them to Moses and have him write them on paper.

The Ten were not meant to "fulfill" anything. They are the ideal set forth by God for how His humans are to live. The Ten Commandments are perfect. How can they be anything but perfect when they emanated from a perfect God?





This is not a rebuke of His own perfect law. Speaking of the Savior to come, Isaiah wrote: "The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Jesus did not come to "abolish the law." He magnified it. When you magnify something you don't diminish it, you make it bigger. Jesus expanded the scope of the law and provided spiritual insights for the beauty of His law.





This is the part I always find so fascinating with those who wish to diminish and/or remove the law which Jesus said He did "not come to abolish" but came to magnify. Why would Jesus magnify the scope of His perfect law only to abolish it, going exactly contrary to what He declared earlier? Don't think that fulfilling the law is somehow different from abolishing it. If Jesus could ever have adjusted His perfect law then He need not have died.

We are not "under the law" if Jesus Christ is in us. But the moment we eject Jesus Christ and commit transgression of His commandments, we put ourselves back under the condemnation of the law.

Think about it. If Jesus Christ is in us will we be embracing what Paul calls "the desires of the flesh"? No.

Romans 8:5-9
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

The key here is not removing God's law, but being governed by the Spirit of Christ. If the Spirit of Christ is in you, why would you suppose you cannot do those things pleasing to Him? Those who do not have Christ's Spirit "CANNOT please God."





I'm pretty sure you and I still sin. Sin is not something that you are, but rather something you do. Sin is the transgression of the law. You cannot claim to be a sinner if there is no law which identifies sin. If the law has been redacted, then there is no condemnation for anyone. All are effectively sinless. If all are sinless, then everyone goes to heaven with zero need of a Savior.

1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The above is another passage of Scripture which people who believe in a once forgiven, always forgiven status have a hard time assimilating into their biblical paradigm. What need is there for confession of sins (plural and implied on-going) if your past, present and future sins are all wiped out? If you're claiming you're not sinning then John says you're making Jesus out to be a liar and His word is not in you.





I'd like to know what you believe these "eternal laws of LOVE are" which "are written on our hearts"? Usually I find that since people want to get rid of the Ten Commandments that they don't have any defined plurality of laws that are written on our hearts under the new covenant. It's generally a nebulous, undefined "love." If love is left undefined, whose are you to say what that love is? I can be a murderer and claim that I'm being loving. :oops: No one can say otherwise, otherwise they're being judgmental and unloving. A truly postmodern mindset.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

How is your sabbath magnified?
 

Icyspark

Member
How is your sabbath magnified?


Hi Carol,

First off, it's not my Sabbath. It's the Lord's day.

Jesus didn't necessarily magnify each and every one of His Ten Commandment covenant. However, regarding the Sabbath, He went out of His way to strip from His holy day many of the man-made restrictions placed upon it and He explained, "the Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath." This simple affirmative strips away one of the primary criticisms of anti-sabbatarians who claim that God's holy day was only for the Jews. Jesus's words here do not allow for that myopic perspective yet even though they know this, the critics tenaciously continue to cling to it.

I pray this helps.
 

Carol

Active member
Hi Carol,

First off, it's not my Sabbath. It's the Lord's day.

Jesus didn't necessarily magnify each and every one of His Ten Commandment covenant.

Where did you get that idea?

BTW, the verse says "the law".
However, regarding the Sabbath, He went out of His way to strip from His holy day many of the man-made restrictions placed upon it and He explained, "the Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath." This simple affirmative strips away one of the primary criticisms of anti-sabbatarians who claim that God's holy day was only for the Jews. Jesus's words here do not allow for that myopic perspective yet even though they know this, the critics tenaciously continue to cling to it.

I pray this helps.
 

Icyspark

Member
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Sorry I didn't answer sooner. We had a suicide bomb go off in Nashville and took out ATT, so didn't have phone of internet (or 911) in three states for a while. We are back online now.


Hi CharismaticLady,

No problem.

That's pretty incredible about the bomb. I haven't been watching the news much so I missed this.


Your pyramid would be great for those before Christ, because that was the Old Covenant. We who are in Christ are under the New Covenant of the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:6-11.

The eternal laws of Love of God are written on our hearts when we become born again. The only commandment that is not part of our nature is the Sabbath. That had to be kept physically and by the letter. It was a teaching method to recognize God as the Creator. Jesus is the Creator, and we can REST/TRUST in Him moment by moment and by the Spirit. The 7th day cannot be kept instinctually by the Spirit. You need a calendar and be taught. It is not part of our new nature. See the new commandments in 1 John 3:23 (read in context 1 John 3:21-24) and that believing in Jesus replaces the first 4 written commandments, and we obey them instinctively when we love Jesus with all our heart. The last 6 are kept by loving our neighbor. Those two commandments are the New Covenant, and can only be kept with the Spirit of God indwelling us. In other words, we must be born again. That is the main reason to be baptized in the Spirit.


It seems to me that you didn't read the opening post?

There was nothing wrong with what was agreed upon. God says He "found fault with the people . . . because they did not remain faithful to my covenant." A covenant is merely an agreement. The Israelites were not faithful to their agreement or promise to "do everything the Lord has said.” Thus the need for a new agreement based on better promises.

For you to claim that "the only commandment that is not part of our nature is the Sabbath," is speculative. How is not taking the Lord's name in vain part of our nature? How is not worshiping other god's part of our nature? How is not not making an image and worshiping it part of our nature? None of these are inherently known within us. If the Spirit can lead you to keep nine of His commandments, He certainly can lead you to keep all ten. :rolleyes:

I agree with you that the Sabbath was given as memorial "to recognize God as the Creator." What I don't agree with is that resting/trusting in Jesus moment by moment in any way overturns Jesus's commandment to remember Him as the Creator. Again, that is speculative and runs counter to common sense as well as to what is revealed in Scripture about the continuity of the Lord's day. Common sense says that there is no reason to forget what Jesus said to remember. Common sense says that there is no reason to set up a weekly reminder from the seventh day of creation that Jesus is the Creator and have that event be on a weekly repeat cycle every seventh day for thousands of years, only to have it inexplicably and mysteriously disappear into the night without so much as a word from the One who set it in motion.

Then there's the overwhelming biblical evidence which one must reject or ignore in order to maintain an anti-sabbatarian mindset. As I mentioned above, Jesus never indicated that the memorial He set up as a weekly reminder of His creative act was ever coming to an end. This is also emphasized by the fact that His closest followers quickly put Jesus into the tomb before the Sabbath began and then "rested according to the commandment."

If Jesus says to call His holy day "a delight" and also says that "the Sabbath was made for people," at what point did it go from being a blessing to a curse? If it's not a curse in your mind, how did it become a burden too much to bear? You do realize that Jesus spent much of His ministry stripping away the manmade burdens placed upon His holy day? Why expend the effort to correct the errors placed upon His memorial if it was going to end in a very short time?

I pray this helps.
 
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Icyspark

Member
The idea he didn't necessarily magnify all the law.


Hi Carol,

Here is how I responded to you on this same thread back on February 11, 2016:


Hi joyous song,

Personally, I think formers are so afraid of the opening post that they are unwilling to even go there to read the Bible text which explains the new covenant. When the Scriptures are read in their normative sense it tells a spot on opposite story than the one spun by formers.


I'm sure this is still true regarding this incarnation of this thread.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
For you to claim that "the only commandment that is not part of our nature is the Sabbath," is speculative. How is not taking the Lord's name in vain part of our nature? How is not worshiping other god's part of our nature? How is not not making an image and worshiping it part of our nature? None of these are inherently known within us. If the Spirit can lead you to keep nine of His commandments, He certainly can lead you to keep all ten.
They were not part of our old carnal nature, but they are certainly part of our born again nature, at least I know this because I AM born again and love Jesus with all my heart and those things woulnd't even enter my thoughts. Sorry, if you can't relate. When I was raised SDA I never even knew about how to receive the Spirit to become born again, so it did'nt happen to me for the first 30 years; but now 43 years of partaking of the divine nature of Christ, I know that 1 John 3:9 describes my life, and I'm on the forums to fight against the heresies started by those who still have no power in them to obey the righteous requirements of God's laws as we walk in the Spirit. And you wouldn't have to ask these questions. You would know the new nature, and know that no one would need to teach you the laws of God. And you would know the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath that is now part of every moment of your life, and forget the physical letter of the law that you would have to memorize. Can you not understand the difference? By the way, Sunday is not a law; there is no new law for a new day, except "Today." And guess what? When tomorrow comes, it is still "Today." Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” ... He is talking about "His Rest." When our body gets tired, we rest everyday, that is even in our born again nature; but only Jesus can give us the spiritual rest from abiding in Him. 1 John 3:23-24. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I agree with you that the Sabbath was given as memorial "to recognize God as the Creator." What I don't agree with is that resting/trusting in Jesus moment by moment in any way overturns Jesus's commandment to remember Him as the Creator. Again, that is speculative and runs counter to common sense as well as to what is revealed in Scripture about the continuity of the Lord's day. Common sense says that there is no reason to forget what Jesus said to remember. Common sense says that there is no reason to set up a weekly reminder from the seventh day of creation that Jesus is the Creator and have that event be on a weekly repeat cycle every seventh day for thousands of years, only to have it inexplicably and mysteriously disappear into the night without so much as a word from the One who set it in motion.

Then why isn't keeping the Sabbath part of the New Covenant commandments? 1 John 3:23. I hope what I just said above sinks in. We need to abide in Him. That is our Sabbath rest. It is not about the letter of the law at all. We no longer need a commandment to not murder if we love them first. Love makes it impossible to break the moral laws of God. And Believing in Jesus and Him dwelling INSIDE us, is abiding in Him. It is all about Jesus! Not a physical, literal day of the week! Romans 8:9.

Then there's the overwhelming biblical evidence which one must reject or ignore in order to maintain an anti-sabbatarian mindset. As I mentioned above, Jesus never indicated that the memorial He set up as a weekly reminder of His creative act was ever coming to an end. This is also emphasized by the fact that His closest followers quickly put Jesus into the tomb before the Sabbath began and then "rested according to the commandment."

Yes, to not do so would have still broken the law they were still under. Why? The New Covenant did not come into affect until what? What did they have to wait for? What is intrinsic to the New Covenant that was not part of the Old? Maybe this will help. 2 Corinthians 3:6-11.

If Jesus says to call His holy day "a delight" and also says that "the Sabbath was made for people," at what point did it go from being a blessing to a curse? If it's not a curse in your mind, how did it become a burden too much to bear? You do realize that Jesus spent much of His ministry stripping away the manmade burdens placed upon His holy day? Why expend the effort to correct the errors placed upon His memorial if it was going to end in a very short time?

I pray this helps.
Where did Jesus say to call His holy day "a delight"? He didn't. That is Old Testament where they were still under a tutor. He never taught anything to the apostles about keeping the Sabbath, only to the rebellious Pharisees who were still under the law. While the apostles were actually with Jesus, and Him being Lord of the Sabbath, they did what Jesus did who was also living under the law and fulfilling it. We are to delight in Jesus, and Him only. To believe in Him, and still revere a physical day is idolatry. Not that you would want to be an idolator, but you don't understand Who Jesus is, and how He rested after preaching His doctrine for three years. There are two physical objects that are part of the New Covenant, and it is not a day, it is the body and blood of Jesus represented in the cup and bread. The Cup is the "Cup of the New Covenant." It is the sign of this covenant, just as the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant Ex. 31:13. Only those without Christ need to keep every aspect of the Old Covenant and be completely perfect and sinless if they can in their old sin nature to have eternal life. Yet what will they say to God when they reject Jesus as their Messiah? There is only one way to heaven, and it is not by keeping the 7th day Sabbath, or hating your brother, just not murdering him. We must be born again by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
 

Icyspark

Member
I've read the text. It doesn't say "ten commandments ".


Hi Carol,

I've discovered that since you don't believe any of the Bible was written specifically to you that you don't feel any of it applies. Is something different now?

God bless!
 

Icyspark

Member
Icyspark said:
For you to claim that "the only commandment that is not part of our nature is the Sabbath," is speculative. How is not taking the Lord's name in vain part of our nature? How is not worshiping other god's part of our nature? How is not not making an image and worshiping it part of our nature? None of these are inherently known within us. If the Spirit can lead you to keep nine of His commandments, He certainly can lead you to keep all ten.
They were not part of our old carnal nature, but they are certainly part of our born again nature, at least I know this because I AM born again and love Jesus with all my heart and those things woulnd't even enter my thoughts. Sorry, if you can't relate.


Hi CharismaticLady,

For you to claim that not taking the Lord's name in vain, et al was not part of our old carnal nature, but now it is part of the born again nature is fine. However, if you can claim that then it is just a hop, skip and a jump to include the fourth commandment as well :rolleyes:


When I was raised SDA I never even knew about how to receive the Spirit to become born again, so it did'nt happen to me for the first 30 years; but now 43 years of partaking of the divine nature of Christ, I know that 1 John 3:9 describes my life, and I'm on the forums to fight against the heresies started by those who still have no power in them to obey the righteous requirements of God's laws as we walk in the Spirit. And you wouldn't have to ask these questions. You would know the new nature, and know that no one would need to teach you the laws of God. And you would know the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath that is now part of every moment of your life, and forget the physical letter of the law that you would have to memorize. Can you not understand the difference?


When you say you began "partaking of the divine nature," what do you mean by this? Based on your screen name I'm surmising you're using this a euphemism for speaking in tongues?

When you reference 1 John 3:9, are you saying you're sinless and have no need to ask for forgiveness (see 1 John 1:8, 9)?

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

If you were living by the Spirit would you not be doing those things pleasing to Him? If you are compelling others to forget what He said to remember then I would suggest that you need to test the spirit within you to see whether it is from God (1 John 4:1). Look at that! Another 1 John reference. I'm beginning to see a trend here. ;)

The new nature does not go contrary to what God has plainly revealed. When John advocates for testing the spirit within you he is not leaving you dangling with no hope of ascertaining the truth other than what the Mormons call a "burning in the bosom." The testing is against what is revealed in Scripture, otherwise a spirit can guide you into false doctrines and ultimately ruin.


By the way, Sunday is not a law; there is no new law for a new day, except "Today." And guess what? When tomorrow comes, it is still "Today." Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” ... He is talking about "His Rest."


You sound like you're old enough to remember a time in the not too distant past in which Sunday was still called "Sabbath" and was treated much the same. However, with the challenges of the Seventh-day Adventist church Sunday churches discovered there was no Bible reason for them to continue calling the first day of the week the Sabbath. Thus they coopted the phrase, "the Lord's day" and attempted to apply that title to Sunday in an attempt to legitimize a day which had no biblical endorsement.

I find it so strange when people appeal to Hebrews 4 as some sort of validation for ridding themselves of Sabbath observance. Have you ever read the chapter and considered that it was actually affirming the seventh day Sabbath? I'll quote the relevant portion below and highlight the words which spell this out:

Hebrews 4:1-11
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spokenlater about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

So, what is the context here? We're talking about God resting from His works after "the creation of the world." Then the author goes on to double down on the obvious and point out that this rest took place "On the seventh day. . ." Not once does he affirm the seventh day, but twice. Then, he goes on to indicate that Christians who want to enter "God's rest also rest from their works, just as God did from His." There is only one place where God rested from His works and that is where He instituted the Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-3). With that in mind, we are to rest from our works in the same way God rested from His. This is not speaking of a nebulous rest. Or a spiritual rest. It is a physical rest. Just as God physically stopped His work of creation.

Set aside your "spirit" guide for a moment and don't let it dictate to you something which you know the text is not saying. Read the text in its normative sense and then test your spirit to see if it agrees with what the Bible clearly teaches. If it doesn't then you can know that it is not from God.

I pray this helps.
 

Icyspark

Member
When our body gets tired, we rest everyday, that is even in our born again nature; but only Jesus can give us the spiritual rest from abiding in Him. 1 John 3:23-24. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”


Hi CharismaticLady,

When former Adventists speak of "the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath," they tend to mean something nebulous like "resting in Jesus." So, I have a question for you. Since you no longer require the physical rest which Jesus asks you to take every seventh day as a memorial of His creation of the world, do you also no longer require physical food or physical water?

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Consistency demands that you should no longer be physically hungry or thirsty. If your body cannot affirm this premise, then why would you assume to dictate that your body no longer requires the physical rest which Jesus provides us in resting from our work, just as He did from His?

If the Spirit is within you then He will affirm what is plainly taught in His Word.

I pray this helps.
 
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