The Notion that Unregenerate Men Can Believe the Gospel on Their Own is Foolishness ...

John 6-44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Pretty clear. Jesus words let us know that NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER ... DRAWS HIM...
You cannot ignore these words. This is why both Arminians and Calvinists believe in Total Depravity -
Why do you leave out verse 45

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

One needs to have heard and learned from the father then one can come

It says nothing at all about an inability to believe God

see also

John 5:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

One can hear God's voice in the scriptures and believe

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 1:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

No verse teaches man is unable to believe God. Many verses show otherwise
 
The natural man is one who relies solely upon human wisdom. It does not address the condition of all men.

This is where you fail. The natural man uses His nature, which is sinful and fallen to make his choices related to YHWH.

1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Ephesians 2:3 New King James Version
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Romans 3 New King James Version
For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
 
Why do you leave out verse 45

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

One needs to have heard and learned from the father then one can come

It says nothing at all about an inability to believe God
OHHHHHHHHH It does say something about ability, in verse 44...
Why do you pass over verse 44... That is what qualifies who is spoken of in verse 45...
 
This is where you fail. The natural man uses His nature, which is sinful and fallen to make his choices related to YHWH.

1 Corinthians 2:14 New King James Version
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Ephesians 2:3 New King James Version
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Romans 3 New King James Version
For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Sorry, you beg the question.

You cannot just assume all men use only their sinful nature to make a choice.

Did Abraham Enoch, Job, Simeon, Zacharias, Elisabeth, Joseph, Able?

All were declared righteous.

Cornelius, Lydia?
 
OHHHHHHHHH It does say something about ability, in verse 44...
Why do you pass over verse 44... That is what qualifies who is spoken of in verse 45...
I didn't I noted how it is one can be drawn by God. What is needed is revelation, then one can come to Christ

And I supported my claim with scripture, of which you addressed little.

Why do you leave out verse 45

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

One needs to have heard and learned from the father, then one can come

It says nothing at all about an inability to believe God

see also

John 5:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

One can hear God's voice in the scriptures and believe

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 1:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

No verse teaches man is unable to believe God. Many verses show otherwise
 
To the unregenerate it's foolishiness (1 Cor 1:18).
The idea of the resurrection is foolish to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews. They don’t lack the ability to understand, they choose to not believe it.

God chose a way that would counter the world’s wisdom, and seem ridiculous to the standard way of thinking of both Jews and Gentiles; it can only be accepted by faith, not rational reasoning, thus Paul continues his thought saying:

22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Doug
 
The idea of the resurrection is foolish to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews. They don’t lack the ability to understand, they choose to not believe it.

God chose a way that would counter the world’s wisdom, and seem ridiculous to the standard way of thinking of both Jews and Gentiles; it can only be accepted by faith, not rational reasoning, thus Paul continues his thought saying:

22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Doug
Calvinists think the passage is about the regenerate vs. the unregenerate.

When it really is about two types of wisdom; earthly wisdom and the wisdom which comes from God.

Earthly wisdom finds the cross foolish, and those who heed only earthly wisdom will not understand the things of the Spirit.
 
Calvinists think the passage is about the regenerate vs. the unregenerate.

When it really is about two types of wisdom; earthly wisdom and the wisdom which comes from God.

Earthly wisdom finds the cross foolish, and those who heed only earthly wisdom will not understand the things of the Spirit.
face/palm
 
Last edited:
That's is not what it says; the unregenerate who mind the things of the flesh. There is nothing in there that states the unregenerate cannot mind the things of the spirit, as in reproving and convicting one of sin.
Where does it say the unregenerate can or do mind the things of the Spirit?
 
1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Says nothing about all men deeming the cross foolishness
That was not his claim. Tim is debating his imaginary friend again.
 
1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Says nothing about all men deeming the cross foolishness
Another straw man ...

I never said that, Tom. You read into my words and into scripture what you want to see in them to support your bad theology.
 
Last edited:
Another straw man ...

I never said that, Tom. You read into my words and into scripture what you want to see in them to support your bad theology.
That's the Calvinist position. Unless regenerated, all men see the cross as foolishness.

Not only do you fail to show my theology bad, but you do not even know your own theology.
 
That's the Calvinist position. Unless regenerated, all men see the cross as foolishness.
Tom, Scripture's position is my position, and Scripture's position is, those being saved see the Cross as the power of God, and to the perishing see the Cross as foolishness (1 Cor 1:18).

Not only do you fail to show my theology bad, but you do not even know your own theology.
LOL
 
Sorry, you beg the question.

You cannot just assume all men use only their sinful nature to make a choice.
How many natures does man have, Tom?

Did Abraham Enoch, Job, Simeon, Zacharias, Elisabeth, Joseph, Able?

All were declared righteous.
So was Paul who declared he was the chief of sinners.

We've found another thing concerning which you have a wrong understanding in your bad theology.
 
How many natures does man have, Tom?


So was Paul who declared he was the chief of sinners.

We've found another thing concerning which you have a wrong understanding in your bad theology.
You have proven nothing

Abraham Enoch, Job, Simeon, Zacharias, Elisabeth, Joseph, Able?

All were declared righteous

not through law but through faith
 
Back
Top