The "only begotten of the Father"

[dberrie2020]

Bonnie posted:

Only-begotten is not the correct translation, which we have proven, haven't we? It is a different word than what is used in John 3-16. Monogenes does not mean only begotten, but special, unique, one of a kind--have you forgotten so soon?


Dr. Luginbill explains it in more detail on his website:

Jesus is God and Man

More aspects of Christology are discussed, including the necessity for the virgin birth

ichthys.com

So, Jesus is God's unique, one-of-a-kind. Monogenes does not mean only-begotten in the flesh. I.e., by Elohim going into his own spirit daughter Mary in her mortality and directly begetting Him in Mary's womb, as we are begotten of our fathers--does it?

The LDS believe "Only Begotten of the Father" is a specific reference to Jesus Christ's birth in the flesh, IE--that Jesus Christ was the only Man ever born to this earth who had an earthly mother--and a heavenly Father. Unique.

John 1:14---King James Version
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The critics here seem to reject that belief, and claim "monogenes" is a reference to "unique, special, one of a kind", etc.---even claiming the translation is wrong in the Bible-----

So--what is there about Jesus being the only One ever born to this earth--with an earthly mother, and a Heavenly Father--which is not unique, special, or one of a kind?

And a second question--what explanation does one apply to "the Only Begotten of the Father"?

 

[The Prophet]

The LDS believe "Only Begotten of the Father" is a specific reference to Jesus Christ's birth in the flesh, IE--that Jesus Christ was the only Man ever born to this earth who had an earthly mother--and a heavenly Father. Unique.

John 1:14---King James Version
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The critics here seem to reject that belief, and claim "monogenes" is a reference to "unique, special, one of a kind", etc.---even claiming the translation is wrong in the Bible-----

So--what is there about Jesus being the only One ever born to this earth--with an earthly mother, and a Heavenly Father--which is not unique, special, or one of a kind?

And a second question--what explanation does one apply to "the Only Begotten of the Father"?

All humans become Children by adoption into God's family but Jesus wasn't adopted because his Father was the Holy Spirit, Matthew 1:18-22 and Alma 7:10

 

[The Prophet]

When was Brigham Young ever right ?​

 

[Theo1689]

The critics here seem to reject that belief, and claim "monogenes" is a reference to "unique, special, one of a kind", etc.

Well, let's see...


BDAG:
μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος
1. pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only
2. pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind)


Thayer:
3439. μονογενής; monogenēs, monogenes (monos and genos) (Cicero, unigena; Vulgate (in Luke unicus, elsewhere) and in ecclesiastical writings unigenitus), single of its kind, only


UBS Lexicon:
μονογενής, ές only, unique


Newman Greek Dictionary:
μονὀγενής, ές (μονόομαι + γίνομαι) only, unique


Louw & Nida:
58.52 μονογενής, ές: pertaining to what is unique in the sense of being the only one of the same kind or class — ‘unique, only.’

---even claiming the translation is wrong in the Bible-----

Well, that depends on your Bible, doesn't it?

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New Living Translation
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

English Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Study Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Contemporary English Version
The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him the complete gifts of undeserved grace and truth have come down to us.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

International Standard Version
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.

NET Bible
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory--the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

New Heart English Bible
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only of the Father, full of grace and truth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.

World English Bible
The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[dberrie2020]

--Theo said: Well, let's see...

BDAG:
μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος
1. pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only
2. pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind)

Just a note Theo--I'm not challenging Jesus was "one of its kind or class"--I'm asking how Jesus being the only One ever born to this earth, having an earthly mother and a Heavenly Father--in the flesh--is not unique, one of it's kind, special, etc?

 

[Bonnie]

Well, let's see...


BDAG:
μονογενής, ές (μόνος, γένος
1. pert. to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship, one and only, only
2. pert. to being the only one of its kind or class, unique (in kind)


Thayer:
3439. μονογενής; monogenēs, monogenes (monos and genos) (Cicero, unigena; Vulgate (in Luke unicus, elsewhere) and in ecclesiastical writings unigenitus), single of its kind, only


UBS Lexicon:
μονογενής, ές only, unique


Newman Greek Dictionary:
μονὀγενής, ές (μονόομαι + γίνομαι) only, unique


Louw & Nida:
58.52 μονογενής, ές: pertaining to what is unique in the sense of being the only one of the same kind or class — ‘unique, only.’




Well, that depends on your Bible, doesn't it?

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New Living Translation
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

English Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Study Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Contemporary English Version
The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him the complete gifts of undeserved grace and truth have come down to us.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

International Standard Version
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.

NET Bible
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory--the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

New Heart English Bible
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only of the Father, full of grace and truth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.

World English Bible
The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Even though some Bibles still have "only begotten", it is still meant to mean unique, special, one of a kinfpd, since Isaac is called Abe's only-begotten son, and Abe had 7 other sons. So, how can "only-begotten" mean "only-begotten in the flesh" since Abe had 7 sons begotten in the flesh? Isaac was one among many. That is not how he was unique and one of a kind.

So, it was not meant to mean "only begotten in the flesh." It should be "one and only, unique".

 

[Theo1689]

Even though some Bibles still have "only begotten", it is still meant to mean unique, special, one of a kinfpd, since Isaac is called Abe's only-begotten son, and Abe had 7 other sons.

For the most part, those who have the rendering "only-begotten" were translated prior before we had a good understanding of "monogenes" (eg. Young's, KJV, Rheims, etc.). Translators previously thought that the root came from "gennao" (to be born), rather than from "genos" ("of a kind").

I believe the reason a few modern translations (eg. NASB) still render it as "only-begotten" is due to tradition. Just about everyone has memorized John 3:16 in the KJV, "only-begotten Son", and people don't like the idea of their Bible changing in any way, even if it ends up being more accurate.

But yes, even when I read the KJV I understood "only-begotten" as "unique", rather than understanding it about being "born".

 

[Bonnie]

For the most part, those who have the rendering "only-begotten" were translated prior before we had a good understanding of "monogenes" (eg. Young's, KJV, Rheims, etc.). Translators previously thought that the root came from "gennao" (to be born), rather than from "genos" ("of a kind").

I believe the reason a few modern translations (eg. NASB) still render it as "only-begotten" is due to tradition. Just about everyone has memorized John 3:16 in the KJV, "only-begotten Son", and people don't like the idea of their Bible changing in any way, even if it ends up being more accurate.

But yes, even when I read the KJV I understood "only-begotten" as "unique", rather than understanding it about being "born".

I tend to agree with you. Luginbill has told me a few times that people want certain renderings in their Bible that they grew up with and we all grew up with the KJV. So as not to discombobulate some folks, the "only-begotten" was left in, in some later translations. But I think your explanation about not knowing fully what "monogenes" meant may very well be true.

 

[dberrie2020]

For the most part, those who have the rendering "only-begotten" were translated prior before we had a good understanding of "monogenes" (eg. Young's, KJV, Rheims, etc.). Translators previously thought that the root came from "gennao" (to be born), rather than from "genos" ("of a kind").

I believe the reason a few modern translations (eg. NASB) still render it as "only-begotten" is due to tradition. Just about everyone has memorized John 3:16 in the KJV, "only-begotten Son", and people don't like the idea of their Bible changing in any way, even if it ends up being more accurate.

But yes, even when I read the KJV I understood "only-begotten" as "unique", rather than understanding it about being "born".

Are you claiming the Biblical texts rendering it as "only begotten"-- hold on to false translations because of "tradition"?

So much for the Biblical inerrancy model. Dust off that criticism of "as far as it's translated correctly"--and dress it in white clothing!

 

[Theo1689]

Are you claiming the Biblical texts rendering it as "only begotten"-- hold on to false translations because of "tradition"?

So much for the Biblical inerrancy model. Dust off that criticism of "as far as it's translated correctly"--and dress it in white clothing!

You apparently don't understand "the Biblical inerrancy model".

 

[Bonnie]

Are you claiming the Biblical texts rendering it as "only begotten"-- hold on to false translations because of "tradition"?

So much for the Biblical inerrancy model. Dust off that criticism of "as far as it's translated correctly"--and dress it in white clothing!

But "only-begotten" still means "one and only, unique" because that is how the church has understood if for centuries. OR do you think it means "only-begotten IN THE FLESH"? If the latter, then why was Isaac called Abe's "only-begotten son" in some translations, since Abe had 7 other sons he beget in the flesh?

 

[dberrie2020]

But "only-begotten" still means "one and only, unique" because that is how the church has understood if for centuries.

Again--what is there about Jesus being the only One to ever have been born to this earth--in the flesh--which had an earthly mother and a heavenly Father--which you don't believe is "one and only", "unique"?

Could you provide us a single exception? If not--then--unique.

OR do you think it means "only-begotten IN THE FLESH"?

It means the only begotten in the flesh:

John 1:14---King James Version
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

If the latter, then why was Isaac called Abe's "only-begotten son" in some translations, since Abe had 7 other sons he beget in the flesh?

Then it might be a reference to some other unique trait or condition--which was unique.

For Jesus--the "unique" was He is the only One to ever have been born to this earth--in the flesh--which had an earthly mother, and a Heavenly Father.

What about that do you disagree with?

 

[Bonnie]

If "only-begotten" means "having been literally begotten by God the Father of a mortal woman", then how can Isaac be Abe's ONLY-begotten Son? Was HE the offspring of God and Sarah? Didn't Abe have 7 OTHER sons?

 

[Bonnie]

All humans become Children by adoption into God's family but Jesus wasn't adopted because his Father was the Holy Spirit, Matthew 1:18-22 and Alma 7:10

One correction, Prophet--the HS is not Jesus' "father". God the Father is. But Mary conceived by the power of the HS, Who overshadowed her, so she could conceive Jesus in her virgin womb, with no human or earthly agency of action of any kind. She conceived purely by the Power of God.

But the rest is fine. We are Jesus' brothers and sisters and fellow HEIRS with Jesus Christ, adopted TO The Father THROUGH the Son, by faith in HIM. Some apparently don't know the difference between "to" and "through."

 

[dberrie2020]

If "only-begotten" means "having been literally begotten by God the Father of a mortal woman", then how can Isaac be Abe's ONLY-begotten Son?

Because Isaac was unique in a different way. There are a number of different ways one can be unique.

Jesus was unique in that He had an earthly mother and a Heavenly Father--in the flesh.

Isaac was not unique in that way, but Christ was.

Was HE the offspring of God and Sarah? Didn't Abe have 7 OTHER sons?

How are you relating that to the fact Jesus was the only one to ever be born here, in the flesh--with an earthly mother, and a Heavenly Father? That's a fact--regardless of how many sons Abraham had.

 

[brotherofJared]

But "only-begotten" still means "one and only, unique" because that is how the church has understood if for centuries. OR do you think it means "only-begotten IN THE FLESH"? If the latter, then why was Isaac called Abe's "only-begotten son" in some translations, since Abe had 7 other sons he beget in the flesh?

It seems odd that you don't realize that your argument would parallel are argument that God had other sons. Is that what you're claiming is meant by "monogenes"? Do you know who these other sons are? Do you know who their mothers are? Where they mortal?

 

[brotherofJared]

If "only-begotten" means "having been literally begotten by God the Father of a mortal woman", then how can Isaac be Abe's ONLY-begotten Son? Was HE the offspring of God and Sarah? Didn't Abe have 7 OTHER sons?

You seem to be missing the other half of that puzzle. If you can show that God had 7 other sons, then the question would be, how then is Jesus unique? But since there aren't 7 other sons, then Jesus is both the literal only begotten Son as well as unique. It seems that our critics have no idea what they've stepped in.

 

[The Prophet]

You seem to be missing the other half of that puzzle. If you can show that God had 7 other sons, then the question would be, how then is Jesus unique? But since there aren't 7 other sons, then Jesus is both the literal only begotten Son as well as unique. It seems that our critics have no idea what they've stepped in.

Not every human is a child of God​

 

[dberrie2020]

Not every human is a child of God​

I don't believe anyone is arguing that to the contrary.

All spirits are Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So--what other god are you claiming is the Father of spirits--other than God the Father?