the original Messianic Judaism?

docphin5

Well-known member
Catholicism (theologically) saved the day? hardly

replacement theology? no thanks
dominionism? no thanks
sacramentalism? no thanks
pagan practices disguised in "Christian" trappings? no thanks

Roman Catholicism and Islam, or factions thereof, come together as part of the
eventual global mystery religion

theological questions and disputes could be solved by
asking an Apostle, or a disciple of an Apostle or checking their written work
similar to Judaism theology being compared to the Ancient works
Agreed. That was my point after you referred me to the writings of the early church Fathers, whose writings were kept to support Roman Catholicism, (despite a few of them leaving the Roman church eg. Tatian.)
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
" the doctrine of the Apostles has been guarded as a very complete system
of doctrine and has been preserved without any forging of scriptures. Neither
receive addition to, nor suffer curtailment from, it's truths." - Irenaeus 170s

"Even if the heretics were to produce such a
contrivance (a list of succession back to the Apostles) they would not
even advance one step. For when their very doctrine is compared to that of the
Apostles, it's own diversity and discrepancy proves that it had neither an Apostle
nor an apostolic man for it's authorship." - Tertullian 190-210
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"only heretics say there are secret doctrines handed down by the Apostles which
you must know in order to understand the scriptures" - Clement of Alexandria 190s

"accept no doctrine that is not clearly taught in the scriptures. It must be proven
logically and completely from the scriptures" - Clement of Alexandria

"it is necessary to show how in the scriptures and in the ancient church, there are
both the exact knowledge and the best set of principles" - Clement of Alexandria

 

docphin5

Well-known member
"only heretics say there are secret doctrines handed down by the Apostles which
you must know in order to understand the scriptures" - Clement of Alexandria 190s
The irony is that Clement of Alexandria was the greatest supporter of gnosticism of all the church fathers. He has a whole work dedicated to praising the gnostic man for which he was later excommunicated by the Roman church.

Which only demonstrates that cherry picking quotes can be misleading.

"it is necessary to show how in the scriptures and in the ancient church, there are
both the exact knowledge and the best set of principles" - Clement of Alexandria

Did you know that “Stromata” actually means “gnostic jottings”? Lol
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen."
- Martin Luther Diet of Worms

"For this reason we forbid anyone from this time forward to dare, either by words or by deeds, to receive, defend, sustain, or favour the said Martin Luther. On the contrary, we want him to be apprehended and punished as a notorious heretic, as he deserves, to be brought personally before us, or to be securely guarded until those who have captured him inform us, whereupon we will order the appropriate manner of proceeding against the said Luther. Those who will help in his capture will be rewarded generously for their good work." - Charles V
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
If you only read the history written by the Roman church then of course, they will appear to have rode in and saved the day, just like North Korean children are taught that they were saved from evil America by their Dear Leader. The great thing about liberal democracies today and critical thinking is we can actually question the “approved history” and investigate sources of information and compare them with what we were told.

The conclusion: a lot of information was left out by the Roman church. A lot was covered up. But all one has to do is dig a little to discover what is under the surface. But many people, to include yourself, do not want to know the truth because they prefer superstitions and myths instead. For you, evolution is false because you want it to be false
Evolution is false.
Scripture tells us how the earth has already been destroyed and re-created. One of the most helpful passages is Jeremiah 4:23-26:
(KJV)
Jer 4:23-26 KJV - 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

The "gap theory" explains how this happened.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
destroyed and re-created
maybe more than once

I, Noah, was at the doors of the ark when the waters had receded...
my sons and their wives...the mountains, valleys, wildernesses,...all
then I went out and walked through the breadth and depth of the land...
it had been reborn with grass, herbs, grain, and fruit trees with leaves.
Then I blessed the Lord of Heaven, glory to Him!"
- testament of Noah Dead Sea Scroll 1Q20 column 11

"...on the mountains of Ararat. After this, I left the mountain.
My sons and I had to rebuild the settlements because the devastation
was so great. My sons had many sons and daughters after the flood." column 12
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"...angels intercede and fight for all lands.
You judge and recompense them for their works.

You rule all that is, and You give honor to whom
You will. You hold all the dominions in your hand,
and call each one by name"
- testament of Enos Dead Sea Scroll 4Q369

some think the highly honored angel/son of God that became Satan
had something to do with Earth or this solar system
before his rebellion, and that the solar system shows
signs of a destruction previous to Genesis 1:2

In Tim Alberino's work, God is basically an Emperor ruling a vast empire of His own creation
consisting of many many realms overseen by His sons/the angels
they are an elder Race and of ancient age
In Tim's view, young Earth ideology is too human and Earth centric in it's focus
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Evolution is false.
Scripture tells us how the earth has already been destroyed and re-created. One of the most helpful passages is Jeremiah 4:23-26:
(KJV)
Jer 4:23-26 KJV - 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

The "gap theory" explains how this happened.
You demonstrate my point exactly. Both Jewish and Christian orthodoxy believe in superstitions and myths, the “letter of the Law”, which prevents them from perceiving the spiritual, the pesher, the allegorical, the gnostic meaning of scripture. If the spirit of truth exists, if the Prince of Truth rules the intelligible kingdom, then such a divine being cannot operate in the souls who choose error over truth, who are completely dependent upon their senses (versus mind).

Because evolution is true and accepted as fact by the whole educated world, then your rejection of it precludes you from the spirit of truth for choosing to believe error. Hence, you take the Bible literally because the spirit is not talking to you. Why should he, when you don’t believe the truth when presented to you?

You are sabotaging yourself from receiving the fruits of the spirit, in this case, knowledge or gnosis, and don’t even know it.

“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom 11)

Unsearchable and inscrutable by the senses alone. “But we [Paul, TOR, gnostic Christians] have the MIND of Christ.” (1 cor 2:16)

I can see it and Paul could see it in his day Too.

“Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord [the Divine Reason of El], the veil is removed.” (2 cor 3:15)

Do you want the living river flowing through your life opening up the meaning of scripture, revealing eternal mysteries of the cosmos, your place in it, your chosen name, a friend of the God Most High? Then start believing the truth in front of you.

”Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you. For there is nothing hidden that won't be revealed."
(Gospel of Thomas, #5)

IOW, know what is true in front of you through the sensible world, then abstract, infer, deduce out to the intelligible world by the Mind. Then the intelligible world will be revealed to you. In a sense, it is becoming at-oned with the cosmic life, seeing everything at once. (Docphin)

”I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—

…and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
(2 cor 12:2)
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Gnosticism sounds smug and self-absorbed
along the lines of Satan's "I will"s in Isaiah :)

Faith is a gift
as is knowledge, understanding, and wisdom
concerning the things of God

not personal achievements to take pride in
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Gnosticism sounds smug and self-absorbed
along the lines of Satan's "I will"s in Isaiah :)
Edit per mod - misrepresenting another poster. Accusation of dishonesty.


You need to choose a side. Either stick with the Pharisees who literalize scripture or stick with the Essenes and Paul who allegorized scripture, otherwise you are the lukewarm member of Christ, neither hot nor cold, but trying to ride the fence, speak with two tongues, having your cake and eating it too. It does not work like that. Committed is the TOR and Paul who lost their lives for taking a stand for what they believed, —nay, what they KNEW (Greek: gnosis) was true.

Faith is a gift
as is knowledge, understanding, and wisdom
concerning the things of God
It does not take a gift to take a literal meaning from scripture. Edit insult
not personal achievements to take pride in
Personal achievement is surrendering to truth, and truth begets freedom. The joy of being free is seen by those who remain in bondage as boasting. It is why the Pharisees hated “The Way”, aka, Essenes. It is why the Roman church hated the gnostic Christians.

“For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1)

”For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” (2 cor 3:6)

My answer: Then surrender to truth (beginning with that in front of you) and enjoy your own freedom. No one person controls the spirit of truth. The Prince of Truth, the Divine Logos, the Mind of God, is one spirit available to all. The TOR and Paul were merely vessels for that truth.
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
I find it so dishonest for you to reference the Dead Sea Scrolls as illuminating but reject their pesher approach to interpreting scripture for their secret meaning, which they explicitly state over and over.
No, they state that they look at the Hebrew scriptures in light of the writings of their Ancestors

“For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1)
”For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” (2 cor 3:6)
this is referencing the Mosaic law and the will of the flesh, not a literal interpretation of scripture
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"Heretics allege truth was delivered not by written documents, but by oral tradition.
Without this oral tradition you (allegedly) can't properly interpret the scriptures."
- Irenaeus Against Heresies 3.2

"True Christians do not divide the body of Christ, but heretics try to."
- Clement of Alexandria Stromata 7.15

"Only heretics teach a secret gospel, letter, or doctrine."
- Tertullian Prescription against Heretics 1.25

"God only blinds the minds of those who chose not to believe and have already rejected Him.
In Romans 1, those who would not retain God in their knowledge, He gave them over to a
reprobate mind. In Thessalonians 2, strong delusion is sent to believe a lie.
God knows the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, and
has given them over to unbelief. God has foreknowledge of all things."
- Irenaeus Against Heresies 4.29

"The people foreknown to believe in Him were foreknown to pursue the fear of the Lord."
Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 70

"God knows the secrets of the heart, and foreknows the future."
Origen Of First Principles 3:13
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
No, they state that they look at the Hebrew scriptures in light of the writings of their Ancestors
If it be ordained, in the opinion of the priests and the majority of the men of their Covenant (i.e., the New Covenant), then he (the initiate) shall be iniated further into the SECRET teaching of the Yahad.”
(wise, Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 126)

This idea of “secret knowledge” is repeated over and over and over in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Clearly, their “secret” interpretations put them at odds with the Pharisees. They were not disagreeing over minor points but about the whole Law and its intended purpose, whether it be literal or whether it be allegorical. Based on the Dead Sea Scrolls the whole Law held secret, allegorical meaning.

If you miss that point from reading the Dead Sea Scrolls then you have missed the point of it all.

this is referencing the Mosaic law and the will of the flesh, not a literal interpretation of scripture
Except that the Essenes, Philo, and Paul allegorized scripture whenever they could. Look at Paul’s epistles and he allegorizes every reference from the Tanakh. So you are living in denial. Just like denying evolution, you deny what the Essenes, Philo, and Paul are actually doing with scripture. The evidence is all over the place but you choose not to admit it. It is like you are living in your own fantasy.

But we impart a SECRET and HIDDEN wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this,” (1 cor 2:7)

”But the specification of the times during which ALL [nation] Israel is blinded to all these rules is laid out in detail in the Book of Time Divisions by Jubilees and Weeks.…That is why Abraham was circumcised on the day he gained true knowledge.”
(Wise, pg 68)

The entire book of Jubilees, aka, Little Genesis, is allegory, summing up all time, from beginning to end. These Essenes promoted to it as containing the “True Knowledge” of things past, present, and future, which Abraham gained upon circumcision, meaning, of course his fleshy nature (vices), to include, the worst vice of all: Ignorance.
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
If it be ordained, in the opinion of the priests and the majority of the men of their Covenant (i.e., the New Covenant), then he (the initiate) shall be iniated further into the SECRET teaching of the Yahad.”
(wise, Dead Sea Scrolls, pg 126)
quote the Scroll...
or provide it's numeric designation

why do you think the Qumran community rules were the promised New covenant of Jeremiah 31?
I think Qumran was called New Damascus (ie. a covenant of Damascus)
the Mosaic law had symbolic/prophetic meaning, which I'd view as different than what you are alleging


"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
" that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment"
a Biblical mystery is something that is now revealed, and Believers have equal access to the new infomatic revelation, not just a select few
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
quote
or provide
not ness...I found a used copy of Wise's book for a buck, so I can look to it now

"Particularly striking is the notion of hidden teaching, called the "mystery".
Early Christianity and rabbinic Judaism also embraced similar but distinct notions
of "continual revelation" not known to outsiders. This is the idea that God continued to
reveal new truth in their own day and that the Bible was neither the only, nor the final,
repository of His communication with humankind. Paul speaks often of
"the mystery of that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations,
but has now been revealed to the saints". " pg 125-126

something has been revealed and knowledge of is available to all the saints
and they should hopefully be of same mind and judgement concerning it

Enoch said the Bible would become the one universal necessary guide of faith for all believers

"I am Your servant; give me understanding,
That I may know Your testimonies." Psalm 119

Wise quotes Karen Armstrong on the cover
I don't buy all of her Academic musings either :)
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
You are sabotaging yourself from receiving ...knowledge or gnosis, and don’t even know it.

"In a consoling letter to a friend, Albert Einstein
penned the observation...
'People like us, who believe in Physics, know that the distinction between
past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.
' "(writing to family of Michele Besso)
- Tim Alberino "Birthright" (currently reading, hence my interest)

"For our knowledge is imperfect...
but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away" Paul, 1 Corinthians 13

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son." Revelation 21
 

docphin5

Well-known member
not ness...I found a used copy of Wise's book for a buck, so I can look to it now
Good! Now you can cross check me without having to take my word for it.

”It is very characteristic of the Dead Sea sect that they often considered the Bible a puzzle to be solved or an enigma to be unraveled...The Qumran scribes understood their task in the same way [as a seer like Daniel] : to penetrate the SECRETS of scripture not through reflection on the text itself, but through openness to the revelation of God.

The writers saw their own group’s history in the words of scripture, foretold long ago,…When they find these characters in the words of the Bible, the disconcerting outcome is not a decoded message, but ONE CODE TRANSLATED INTO ANOTHER CODE.” (Wise, pg 79)
———-
“Although honoring the Law as much as Ben Sira, the hiddenness of the DIVINE PATTERN impressed them as much as its splendor. It was clear to them that, unaided, the human mind could not grasp wisdom; it would have to begiven to INDIVIDUALS as a gift. Certain men, then were SINGLED out to be the lucky recipients of revelation, and they would then know the SECRETS of God, especially the ‘secret of the way things are,’ a sectarian title for divine hokmah.”
(Wise, pg 109)

Wise is a bit sarcastic and oversimplifying the case in the above paragraph implying revelation as a kind of lottery for the “lucky recipients.” That is not the case at all. These pious, virtuous, scribes were leading a monastic life for the sake of truth. They gave up all worldly possessions and devoted themselves to prayer and worship in search of truth. Their reward was revelation. The TOR being an anointed leader among them who was martyred for what he knew. (Maybe the Pharisees accused him of being smug or self-absorbed too). The Alexandrian Jews, namely, Therapeutae, were doing the same thing, from whom Philo received his allegorical interpretations of scripture. So this is no gimmick but a result of a life devoted to the God Most High, aka, El.

One does not just say the Sinner’s Prayer, and Bam! —the mysteries of the universe are downloaded at once. These scribes spent their whole lives searching these things out, and even then, the wisdom was stronger in some more than others.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation,

just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,

as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.

There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
(2 peter 3)
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
and re-created
in a study on angels, Arnold Fruchtenbaum thinks part of the destiny of the angels
is the same place as us - the New Jerusalem

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 12

that's pretty neato
 
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