the original Messianic Judaism?

Rachel Redux

Active member
in a study on angels, Arnold Fruchtenbaum thinks part of the destiny of the angels
is the same place as us - the New Jerusalem

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 12

that's pretty neato
That's very neato! 🙂
That's a great scripture.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Point of information.

1) Essenes had members who were married. In fact, there are instructions in the Dead Sea Scrolls for those who are married.
Was it the norm? Marriage is to be encouraged as it is Torah.

2) Water baptism was required by all, to include the Pharisees, to become a member of the Yahad, ie., the community belonging to the Essenes.
And why is this important? This definitely isn't normative Judaism nor called out in Torah. So, you're pointing out more issues that show them as an illegitimate group.

Such a requirement was considered an insult by Pharisees.
I don't know about that but it definitely isn't required nor called out in Torah.

Simply, we are not talking about washing one’s hands or even conversion to Judaism, but conversion by ALL to the community belonging to “the Way”, which, of course, we all know as the sacrament of baptism required by ALL to become Christians.
Which just points to it being an illegitimate group, cult, like Christianity is today.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You demonstrate my point exactly. Both Jewish and Christian orthodoxy believe in superstitions and myths, the “letter of the Law”,
Wrong. Judaism doesn't believe their faith is superstitions, myths. The law was given to a large multitude and that's what we strive to abide to.

which prevents them from perceiving the spiritual, the pesher, the allegorical, the gnostic meaning of scripture.
Actually, this is a misunderstanding of gnostics, the mystery religions, that spiritual means something other than following what God's spirit, His will, have declared, for us to do, Ezekiel 36:26-27, etc.

It's the scam of mystery religions that their adherents have some secret knowledge that draws them closer to their gods.

If the spirit of truth exists, if the Prince of Truth rules the intelligible kingdom, then such a divine being cannot operate in the souls who choose error over truth, who are completely dependent upon their senses (versus mind).
And the Psalms call out what is truth - God's law, Psalm 119.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Arnold Fruchtenbaum also points out that the angels are not omniscient, so they are always learning new things
and increasing their knowledge as well.
I do not doubt that. I suspect that there is more of an association between humans and angels than most are aware. (They used to teach everyone had a guardian angel.)

For example, “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.” Hebrews 13:2

I suspect that the “angels” are how the God Most High sees us in our perfected state. We see ourselves beginning and ending in time. He sees us as we will be for all time and eternity. In that sense, we are becoming the angels he has foreknown and predestined. When the soul sees itself as God sees it, then the union is complete and we are born of his spirit. That cuts both ways, of course, for he sees the fallen angels as well, those souls bound to vice for all time and eternity.

When Elijah saw the angels he saw the intelligible world perceived by mind alone, according to divine reason (Greek: Logos).

Per the Dead Sea Scrolls, an angel of the presence walked among them. I think they accepted the TOR as a perfected soul upon earth. One whose soul was born of spirit.
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Was it the norm? Marriage is to be encouraged as it is Torah.


And why is this important? This definitely isn't normative Judaism nor called out in Torah. So, you're pointing out more issues that show them as an illegitimate group.


I don't know about that but it definitely isn't required nor called out in Torah.


Which just points to it being an illegitimate group, cult, like Christianity is today.
What’s your story? Were you raised Jewish or did you convert? From my perspective, I see no difference between you and a fundamentalist Christian: that is, absolutist and dogmatic. The same mind but on different sides of a watershed, like two drops of water falling from the sky on the same mountaintop but ending up in different oceans.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
What’s your story? Were you raised Jewish or did you convert?
My story is I was born Jewish.

From my perspective, I see no difference between you and a fundamentalist Christian: that is, absolutist and dogmatic.
From my perspective, you're not handling well the questions and issues I'm raising.

The same mind but on different sides of a watershed, like two drops of water falling from the sky on the same mountaintop but ending up in different oceans.
Shall I get a tissue for you? Perhaps a glass of whine and Pavarotti singing Pagliacci so you can sulk?
 

docphin5

Well-known member
My story is I was born Jewish.


From my perspective, you're not handling well the questions and issues I'm raising.
How do you reconcile the lack of fulfillment of the promises in the Torah with your belief in the Torah?

Nation Israel has never received the promises made in the Torah. Nation Israel was ruled by Egyptians, then held a minor place as desert tribes between power houses of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Before being ruled by Persians, Greeks, Ptolemies, Romans, etc.

Fact is nation Israel has been ruled by others for most of its history. When it did rule itself it was either non consequential to its neighbors or it self-destructed.

Not much to brag about being the chosen of YHWH is it? Put another way, YHWH has done very little for nation Israel compared to the gods of other nations.

Moreover, throughout most of its history it persecuted and killed the prophets. For example, Isaiah is one of the greatest prophets condemned and killed by the high priest and king of nation Israel.

Point is that you guys have always messed things up and are still messing things up by holding on to empty promises.

Which brings me to my point.

At what point do you guys realize the promises as literally written are never going to come and start to realize that scripture has a hidden meaning about things greater than dirt in Palestine. To be frank, “the promised land” is not dirt in Palestine but the “new heaven and earth” foretold by Isaiah. The “Joshua or Jesus” leading his “chosen ones” to the “promised land” is the celestial Messiah bringing order to the cosmos.

It is the pesher approach to scripture arguably pioneered by the Teacher of Righteousness who perceives the scriptures being fulfilled all around him. He was not waiting for some unfulfilled promise according to the letter of the Law, for he was living the fulfilled promises in his lifetime by recognizing the hidden meaning of scripture.

So while you keep waiting on empty promises to be fulfilled, the TOR was receiving the promises for himself and those who believed him. The Dead Sea Scrolls open a window into the hidden meaning of scripture which Philo, Paul, and the gnostic Christians carried on, until the Roman church bull dozed it over, just like the Pharisees did the Essenes.

But the God Most High has a way of making the hidden meaning of scripture known again as day follows night. There is a reason the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered around the same time as nation Israel was freed from foreign rule, and it is NOT for them to rule the nations on earth, but for a remnant of nation Israel to return to the TOR’s teachings and rule the new heaven and new earth. It will happen as foretold by the TOR himself and the prophets before him.

Today we celebrate the birth of Christ on earth which in its original form represented the rising of the sun in the East (associated with the winter solstice as the solar light increases throughout the year). It is the knowledge of the Most High God, the Father Sun, that rises in our hearts and in the world at the “appointed times”, which the earliest Jewish Christians celebrated.

Shall I get a tissue for you? Perhaps a glass of whine and Pavarotti singing Pagliacci so you can sulk?
I am not sulking but I am astonished at the unbelief and hardness that exists in the world. It presents itself in many forms.
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
How do you reconcile the lack of fulfillment of the promises in the Torah with your belief in the Torah?

Nation Israel has never received the promises made in the Torah. Nation Israel was ruled by Egyptians, then held a minor place as desert tribes between power houses of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Before being ruled by Persians, Greeks, Ptolemies, Romans, etc.

Fact is nation Israel has been ruled by others for most of its history. When it did rule itself it was either non consequential to its neighbors or it self-destructed.

Not much to brag about being the chosen of YHWH is it? Put another way, YHWH has done very little for nation Israel compared to the gods of other nations.

Moreover, throughout most of its history it persecuted and killed the prophets. For example, Isaiah is one of the greatest prophets condemned and killed by the high priest and king of nation Israel.

Point is that you guys have always messed things up and are still messing things up by holding on to empty promises.

Which brings me to my point.

At what point do you guys realize the promises as literally written are never going to come and start to realize that scripture has a hidden meaning about things greater than dirt in Palestine. To be frank, “the promised land” is not dirt in Palestine but the “new heaven and earth” foretold by Isaiah. The “Joshua or Jesus” leading his “chosen ones” to the “promised land” is the celestial Messiah bringing order to the cosmos.

It is the pesher approach to scripture arguably pioneered by the Teacher of Righteousness who perceives the scriptures being fulfilled all around him. He was not waiting for some unfulfilled promise according to the letter of the Law, for he was living the fulfilled promises in his lifetime by recognizing the hidden meaning of scripture.

So while you keep waiting on empty promises to be fulfilled, the TOR was receiving the promises for himself and those who believed him. The Dead Sea Scrolls open a window into the hidden meaning of scripture which Philo, Paul, and the gnostic Christians carried on, until the Roman church bull dozed it over, just like the Pharisees did the Essenes.

But the God Most High has a way of making the hidden meaning of scripture known again as day follows night. There is a reason the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered around the same time as nation Israel was freed from foreign rule, and it is NOT for them to rule the nations on earth, but for a remnant of nation Israel to return to the TOR’s teachings and rule the new heaven and new earth. It will happen as foretold by the TOR himself and the prophets before him.

Today we celebrate the birth of Christ on earth which in its original form represented the rising of the sun in the East (associated with the winter solstice as the solar light increases throughout the year). It is the knowledge of the Most High God, the Father Sun, that rises in our hearts and in the world at the “appointed times”, which the earliest Jewish Christians celebrated.


I am not sulking but I am astonished at the unbelief and hardness that exists in the world. It presents itself in many forms.
You and eve should get together and chat.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Gnosis of and controlling the flesh our own efforts is doomed to fail us
Knowledge of the Truth, same as Faith, is a gift from God (His Word is a gift to us)

As the Law was only a shadow of the greater realities to be revealed
our perception can know only of a fraction of the totality of the created Reality

one can never know God or be His child thru Law
one will never be born of God (or achieve godhood) thru their own effort and acquired knowledge

Tim Alberino compares this to Plato's story of the people in the cave, who are
unable to know everything and have a skewed knowledge of

Darwin, Nietzche, Marx, Crowley, Simon the Magician were all ultimately in the Dark
or purposely preferred the dark side
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
the Qumran/Scrolls calendar starts on (I think) the day after
the Spring equinox (always a Wednesday, the fourth day of the week)

not saying Jesus was definitively born on Nisan 1
but if He was, He would have been presented in the Temple
on the Eighth day maybe Nisan 9???
lambs were chosen on the 10th???

He would have been brought to Jerusalem at
the same time as the lambs from Bethlehem for the Passover sacrifices
Joseph would have been required to be there at that time
just a thought
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
“The man who murmurs against the secret teaching of the Yahad is to be banished, never to return.” (Wise, pg 128)

Most likely people who accused the Yahad of “self-absorption” and “smugness” for holding a “secret teaching” of scripture were expelled from the group. Or if anyone deviated from the secret teaching then their food rations were reduced for TWO years.

”The man whose spirit deviates from the secret teaching of the Yahad, such that he forsakes the truth and walks in the stubbornness of his heart—if he repents, he is to be punished by two years reduced rations.” (Wise, pg 128)

That is how important their revealed meaning of the Law was! It was so important that they concealed it from nation Israel. The only ones who could be taught it were the anointed leaders who joined their community.

It sounds like a cult teaching but for them it was a matter of life and death. But the interesting thing is that their cult teachings ended up in the scriptures of Christianity: the Way, the baptizer, the coming Messiahs, the apocalypse, the new covenant, the duality (satan versus Jesus), the allegorizing of scripture by Paul/Jesus, the sacrament of baptism, the Lord’s supper, so on and so on, founded by the TOR.

There is a reason the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found if nothing else than to honor him who founded the secret teaching revealed from the Law which spread all over the earth. In this way, the true shepherd of Israel has made his mark upon the world. Arguably, a king of many nations.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Elisha's servant bemoaned,
"Alas my master, what shall we do?"

So he (Elisha) answered,
"Do not fear, for those who are with us are more
than those who are with them."

So Elisha said
"Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see."
Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man and he saw.
And the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around...

Elisha prayed that the servant eyes would be opened
not that the invisible army would be made visible.

This is because the angelic army was NOT invisible,
but rather imperceivable.
Elisha's servant, and presumably the inhabitants of Dothan,
were simply unable to perceive the whole spectrum of
the dimensional world encompassing them. 2 Kings 6
"Birthright" pgs 24-25
 
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Jewjitzu

Well-known member
How do you reconcile the lack of fulfillment of the promises in the Torah with your belief in the Torah?
What hasn't been fulfilled? Be specific.

Nation Israel has never received the promises made in the Torah.
Which ones?

Nation Israel was ruled by Egyptians, then held a minor place as desert tribes between power houses of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Before being ruled by Persians, Greeks, Ptolemies, Romans, etc.
They've had their own national sovereignty though, correct?

I would expect all promises considering borders, etc., in the future.

Fact is nation Israel has been ruled by others for most of its history. When it did rule itself it was either non consequential to its neighbors or it self-destructed.
And yet, they still remain a nation. How do you explain that?

Not much to brag about being the chosen of YHWH is it?
Who's bagging? Choseness has responsibilities. And when the requirements aren't lived up to, all the promises aren't fulfilled until they are.

This doesn't take away the fact that YHWH chose Israel and freed them from Egypt, which He hasn't done with any other nation. And never will.

Put another way, YHWH has done very little for nation Israel compared to the gods of other nations.
Really? What gods from the nations have done the miracles YHWH did for Israel? Be specific.

Moreover, throughout most of its history it persecuted and killed the prophets. For example, Isaiah is one of the greatest prophets condemned and killed by the high priest and king of nation Israel.
And?

Point is that you guys have always messed things up and are still messing things up by holding on to empty promises.
But then, YHWH is still gracious with us. Have you read about that?

Which brings me to my point.
I was hoping you had one.

At what point do you guys realize the promises as literally written are never going to come and start to realize that scripture has a hidden meaning about things greater than dirt in Palestine. To be frank, “the promised land” is not dirt in Palestine but the “new heaven and earth” foretold by Isaiah.
So what in Tanakh do you take literal? There is no Palestine. It's a made up term and people.

What land will Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob inherit and live on if not the same land as their descendants?

The “Joshua or Jesus” leading his “chosen ones” to the “promised land” is the celestial Messiah bringing order to the cosmos.
Zero support for this. The meek shall inherit the earth...

It is the pesher approach to scripture arguably pioneered by the Teacher of Righteousness who perceives the scriptures being fulfilled all around him. He was not waiting for some unfulfilled promise according to the letter of the Law, for he was living the fulfilled promises in his lifetime by recognizing the hidden meaning of scripture.
Yep. Most mystics, gnostics, as yourself, assume everything is fulfilled as they see it.

So while you keep waiting on empty promises to be fulfilled, the TOR was receiving the promises for himself and those who believed him. The Dead Sea Scrolls open a window into the hidden meaning of scripture which Philo, Paul, and the gnostic Christians carried on, until the Roman church bull dozed it over, just like the Pharisees did the Essenes.
Rotfl... Israel is still around after 2000 yrs, and the destruction of the temple. We stand as a witness against you.

Anything else?

But the God Most High has a way of making the hidden meaning of scripture known again as day follows night. There is a reason the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered around the same time as nation Israel was freed from foreign rule, and it is NOT for them to rule the nations on earth, but for a remnant of nation Israel to return to the TOR’s teachings and rule the new heaven and new earth. It will happen as foretold by the TOR himself and the prophets before him.
Tanakh is being fulfilled just fine the way it has.

Today we celebrate the birth of Christ on earth which in its original form represented the rising of the sun in the East (associated with the winter solstice as the solar light increases throughout the year).
Actually, he wasn't born on Dec. 25, and if you've bothered to study the reason behind this tradition, you'd see the futility in your religion.

It is the knowledge of the Most High God, the Father Sun, that rises in our hearts and in the world at the “appointed times”, which the earliest Jewish Christians celebrated.
The pagan Sunday is nothing to brag about.

I am not sulking but I am astonished at the unbelief and hardness that exists in the world. It presents itself in many forms.
Yes, paganism, mysticism, gnosticsm, is a sad state of affairs, and ultimately unbelief in the true God.

Ta ta
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
”The man whose spirit deviates from the secret teaching of the Yahad, such that he forsakes the truth and walks in the stubbornness of his heart—if he repents, he is to be punished by two years reduced rations.” (Wise, pg 128)
Knowing too much might not be the best option for Us at this time.

"Until then I had a veil on my face, trembling, and the Lord called me with His own voice,
and said unto me...
'...fear not righteous man, and scribe of righteousness, go say to the Watchers, who have sent
you to intercede for them.
'You should intercede for men, and not men for you!' - book of Enoch

Imagine being Enoch and seeing angels and demons regularly
they know you, and you know them by name
freaky! and it can be dangerous

it seems to have gotten to him sometimes because at one point I think he had to get away for a while
and did so until he was sort of begged to come back and minister to his fellow humans again, which he did

And the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around...

if Jesus at His ascension rose of His own power
maybe bending Space and Time to his own will (as He is the creator of it)
Elijah, being a regular dude, maybe had to be picked up in a craft of some sort 2 Kings 2
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Knowing too much might not be the best option for Us at this time.
If you say so.

The way I look at it is there are a limited number of days to work after which no more work is allowed. Therefore it is up to us to get the work done while we can lest we run out of time. Does not scripture say anyone working on the sabbath will be cutoff? I suspect its better meaning, ie, the eternal meaning, is applicable to heavenly time (versus solar days). Hmm… I wonder if the Essenes said anything about that?

Put another way, why put off to tomorrow what can be done today? There should be a sense of urgency lest something be left undone. Paul seemed to think along those lines when he wrote,

“Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For he says,
“In a favorable time I listened to you,
and in a day of salvation I have helped you.”

Behold,
NOW is the favorable time; behold,
NOW is the day of salvation.

We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry,” (2cor 6:2)

"Until then I had a veil on my face, trembling, and the Lord called me with His own voice,
and said unto me...
'...fear not righteous man, and scribe of righteousness, go say to the Watchers, who have sent
you to intercede for them.
'You should intercede for men, and not men for you!' - book of Enoch

Imagine being Enoch and seeing angels and demons regularly
they know you, and you know them by name
freaky! and it can be dangerous

it seems to have gotten to him sometimes because at one point I think he had to get away for a while
and did so until he was sort of begged to come back and minister to his fellow humans again, which he did



if Jesus at His ascension rose of His own power
maybe bending Space and Time to his own will (as He is the creator of it)
Elijah, being a regular dude, maybe had to be picked up in a craft of some sort 2 Kings 2
 
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