the original Messianic Judaism?

American Gothic

Well-known member
Work Work Work etc.
NOW is the favorable time;
behold,
NOW is the day of salvation.
I'm resting in Him and His work and am already trusting that my salvation is assured.
Are you certain about this?
pretty sure
the example above is labeled "Enoch calender" - there are different circular counters
I'm talking about the yearly days counter 360 days in 12 months
plus 4 tekufahs (equinoxes/solstices) plus a sometimes leap week
other circular counters are used to track larger periods of time in the Ages
below is just an example - the subject is pretty cool

il_570xN.101461714.jpg
"This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you." Exodus/Leviticus
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"Now my son Methuselah, all these things I have recounted
and written down for you. I have revealed to you everything
and given you books concerning all these.
So preserve, my son...the books from your fathers hand,
and see that you deliver them to the generations of the world.
I have given to you wisdom, and to your children, and those who
will be your children, and those who will be their children for generations.
this wisdom that surpasses their understanding." ch. 82
- book of Enoch

I'd view the Wisdom passed down to be History, Prophecies,
the message of salvation/Messiah
and direction on how to walk humbly with God in this fallen World
'til Kingdom Come

in one passage, the Ancient of Days is scolding the Watchers
specifically for
mingling with the blood of humanity
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood" Leviticus 17
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I'm resting in Him and His work and am already trusting that my salvation is assured.

pretty sure
the example above is labeled "Enoch calender" - there are different circular counters
I'm talking about the yearly days counter 360 days in 12 months
plus 4 tekufahs (equinoxes/solstices) plus a sometimes leap week
other circular counters are used to track larger periods of time in the Ages
below is just an example - the subject is pretty cool

View attachment 2471
"This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year to you." Exodus/Leviticus
Per wikipedia, the Enoch calender was inaccurate and over a period of 25 years would be off by a month or more. (1). Which may explain why the winter solstice is at the wrong time in your earlier picture.

it is important when trying to understand the ideas circulating around the time of the Essenes, for example, the idea of the birth of Christ. Right? Otherwise, Bad data IN = bad data OUT.

So when I want to know how THEY, the Essenes, thought about the birth of Christ, then it helps to accurately know the ideas (data) they held. Otherwise, I end up believing error then telling myself I am “resting” (on the error) on what I believe. Which could be a path leading nowhere. (Sad face)

Three points of information
1) winter solstice is defined as the longest night of the year, irregardless, of any proposed calenders. The Egyptians had accurate methods to mark the seasons long before the Essenes. IOW, if the winter solstice happens in winter then everyone knew that. It doesn’t happen in the Spring even if we imagine it did.

2) The birth of Christ was associated with winter solstice as it marked the coming of spring because the long night was over and light was increasing. Remember,
Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
It correlated with the birth of Horus celebrated by the Egyptians who also worshipped at the cycles of the rising and setting sun long before the Essenes were doing so. (2)

Someone may ask, Why don’t we hear about this in the Christian churches?

Answer: Because people CHOOSE to believe something else, and have convinced themselves (i.e., are “resting“) in what they believe, even if reason and evidence support a different conclusion. (2 Tim 4:3)

3) The Essenes worshipped at the rising and the setting of the sun. They were not worshipping the solar orb itself, but what it symbolizes, specifically, the God of knowledge and his rays of light giving knowledge of himself. Therefore, the birth of Christ on earth is the knowledge of The Most High God on earth and the TOR was a Christ-anointed figure to the Essenes for that reason.

In anticipation of a certain poster claiming it is pagan to use the sun as a simile and therefore should be rejected, I would add that there is nothing wrong in finding similes from nature to explain celestial events. The Bible is filled with similes from nature. It does not mean that the symbol is causal in its effects but instead means that God manifests knowledge of himself through nature, in the sense that, “the heavens declare the glory of God.” (Psalm 19:1)
——-
References
1) ”Calendar expert John Pratt wrote that "The Enoch calendar has been criticized as hopelessly primitive because, with only 364 days, it would get out of sync with the seasons so quickly: in only 25 years the seasons would arrive an entire month early.” (Wikipedia, Dec 27, 2021)

2) Per Epiphanius,
’at a distance of thirteen days from the increase of the light [ie., at December 25]; for it needs must have been that this should be a figure of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and His twelve disciples, who make up the thirteen days of the increase of the Light.’”

Therefore, the birth of Christ comes from an Egyptian Feast, namely the Feast of the Epiphany. The Feast of the Epiphany was a great day in Egypt, connected with the “Birth of the Aeon” —a phase of the “Birth of Horus”.

Per Mead, “Epiphanius is stating that the true birthday of the Christ is the Feast of Epiphany.“ [associated with the winter solstice]. (GRS Mead, Thrice Greatest Hermes).
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Per wikipedia, the Enoch calender was inaccurate and over a period of 25 years would be off by a month or more. (1). Which may explain why the winter solstice is at the wrong time in your earlier picture.
I took issue with it being labeled "Enoch" calendar - there might be another counter that is Enoch specific (see below)
it seems to me to be the general layout of what I'm told is the "Dead Sea Scroll" calendar
most of my info comes from Ken Johnson
I'm not dogmatic about it, and neither is he - it's just an area of his study
he is open that his reconstructions are exactly that, reconstructions to the best of his knowledge and ability,
and can certainly be questioned

just a note on Jesus birth topic -
some think it might have coincided with Trumpets, or Tabernacles, or maybe even Hanukkah
I would think it would probably coincide with something on the Calendar, whatever the Biblical one in fact is
as for the light that led the Wise men to the Child
I'd think it was probably not a true astrological Star
but maybe and angel or the Shekinah - it seems to have moved
and was most likely not visible to everyone, a la previous points about what is perceivable and what is not

The Essenes worshipped at the rising and the setting of the sun
I don't ascribe to this thinking about them
a Biblical calendar starts Nisan 1, as it would for Qumran/Essenes being Jews
I try to understand and believe the Bible to the best of my ability, because I think it is true
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
hopelessly primitive because, with only 364 days, it would get out of sync with the seasons so quickly
according to Mr. Johnson, it has a leap week to keep it in line with the Spring tekufah
his reconstruction for this year has one
the Rabbinic lunar/solar calendar I think has a leap month

his reconstruction of "Enoch" calendar
tracks 7000 years of time in 700 year periods (weeks of 100 years)
based on Enoch's vision in chapters 91-93
that is different from another scheme that tracks 500 year Onah counts based on Jubilees
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I don't ascribe to this thinking about them
Do you ascribe to truth, if there be evidence? Wise explicitly describes the prayers said at the sun’s setting and rising.

”The first prayer in each pairing is recited in the evening, the second in the morning as the sun rises.” (Wise, pg 520)

Of course, the fact that the Essenes called themselves “sons of light” has no connection to the Father, signified as sun, would it? (Sarcasm)

Why allow the truth to get in the way of our opinions, right?

Per Josephus on the Essenes,
”Toward the Deity, at least: pious observances uniquely [expressed]. Before the sun rises, they utter nothing of the mundane things, but only certain ancestral prayers to him, as if begging him to come up.”

It is so shocking to watch people imagine what is true despite the evidence, then choose to believe what they imagine, then rest in their belief, self assured that they have everything they need.

 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
It is so shocking to watch people imagine what is true despite the evidence, then choose to believe what they imagine, then rest in their belief, self assured that they have everything they need.
Isn't that exactly what you're doing? You quote your "scholar" of choice just like everyone else does.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Isn't that exactly what you're doing? You quote your "scholar" of choice just like everyone else does.
I quote actual evidence regarding existing documents written up to 200 B.C. You can read them for yourself, in this case, the actual prayers they recited before the sun, but why let evidence get in the way of what you CHOOSE to believe, right?

I just came across one website, presumably Christian, in which it stated that the Essenes could not be sun worshippers because they held a literal interpretation of Torah!?

I could not help but think, Are they reading the same Dead Sea Scrolls that I am?! The Essenes allegorized the Torah over and over.

Which goes to show, people choose to believe what they imagine despite the evidence contrary to it. To which I add, Is that the best we can do? Is that what the God of Knowledge will reward? Will he reward choosing error when the truth is in front of us? I doubt it.

If you are a Christian, have you ever worshipped before the “morning star”? If so, then you could be a sun worshipper too, as the morning star or rising sun signifies the Christ.

I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Rev 22:16)
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Do you ascribe to truth, if there be evidence? Wise explicitly describes the prayers said at the sun’s setting and rising.
I would question Jews being Sun worshippers
tracking time would be important tho
saying established prayers at specific times seems normal for Jews

The Essenes allegorized the Torah over and over
I question this
as a fifth year University drop out, I generally view many of my former professors as pretentious twats :)
and their degrees don't impress me much

no matter what subject is being discussed, people will disagree

I think I just had Covid over the last 5 days (feeling better today)
I'm not jabbed (some for a specific personal Medical reason) and I don't trust the Experts on that issue at all
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I would question Jews being Sun worshippers
they were not worshipping the solar orb, but what it signifies, that is, the father-sun and the light it shines in our hearts, namely, Yeshua or Ruach Elohim.

For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 cor 4:6)

There is an important difference but few perceive it because the many are unable to differentiate, —nay, the many CHOOSE not to differentiate between the signs and the true substance, even when the evidence is presented.

tracking time would be important tho
saying established prayers at specific times seems normal for Jews


as a fifth year University drop out, I generally view many of my former professors as pretentious twats :)
and their degrees don't impress me much
…and it shows when you deny the facts of evolution. IOW, you did yourself a disservice despising a good education.
no matter what subject is being discussed, people will disagree
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
…and it shows when you deny the facts of evolution. IOW, you did yourself a disservice despising a good education.
lol, the Facts!
Darwin imagined a single Tree of Life
I think it is a forest of intelligently planted and managed trees of various Kinds of life
we all have the exact same evidence to consider, just may draw different conclusions from

feeling good today
made some $$$ from my couch this Morning in 3 hours
if Sun comes out I'm going skating
who needs a Uni degree or Academic career? pfftt, not Me
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
Jewishly, what would be so important about the Winter solstice?
It is a natural phenomena that signifies a celestial event.

The longest night ends at the winter solstice marking the increase in light everyday after that. Therefore, the “sons of light” may have perceived a connection between the increase of light throughout the year, and a very special year, namely, “the Year of the Lord’s favor” (Isaiah 61:2)

Since light signifies knowledge to the Essenes then it is not a stretch for them to associate the knowledge (Light) from the God Most High (Father-Sun) being revealed from scripture by the TOR himself, in association with that sacred year in scripture.

“Then the Day of Atonement shall follow at the end of the tenth jubilee period, when he shall atone for all the Sons of Light and the people predestined to Melchizedek…
For this is the time decreed for “the year of Melchizedek’s favor” (Isaiah 61:2, modified) and for his hosts, together with the holy ones of God…” (Wise, pg 592)

Per the DSC, the TOR was martyred around 67 B.C. On “the Day of Atonement” (Wise, pg 87). Therefore,
the Blessed Teacher,
the revealer of the hidden meaning of the Law,
the leader of the Sons of light,
the interpreter of the Mosaic Law,
increased the knowledge of the God Most High in his time, i.e., ”in the time decreed for the year of Melchizedek’s favor”.

It goes on to say, “ A godlike being [Melchizedek] has taken his place in the council of God…Concerning what scripture says, “How long will you judge unjustly” the interpretation applies to Belial…In that day he [Melchizedek] will deliver them from the power of Belial.”

It is noteworthy that among the list of grievances against Belial which Melchizedek remedies is the following, “They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness” (Psalm 82:5)

How does one remedy the lack of knowledge or darkness but by giving knowledge kept from humans or extinguishing darkness by light itself?

These are ideas expressed over and over by the Essenes in the Dead Sea Scrolls available for anyone to read.


there doesn't seem to be much going on during that season on the Rabbinic calendar, except for Hanukkah
and that wasn't a Law commanded feast, but added later...
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
The longest night ends at the winter solstice marking the increase in light everyday after that. Therefore, the “sons of light” may have perceived a connection between the increase of light throughout the year, and a very special year, namely, “the Year of the Lord’s favor” (Isaiah 61:2)

Since light signifies knowledge to the Essenes then it is not a stretch for them to associate the knowledge (Light) from the God Most High (Father-Sun) being revealed from scripture by the TOR himself, in association with that sacred year in scripture.
I'm ok with the idea that Hanukkah (Festival of Lights) might have something to do with Messiah
I think it would
“Then the Day of Atonement shall follow at the end of the tenth jubilee period, when he shall atone for all the Sons of Light and the people predestined to Melchizedek…
For this is the time decreed for “the year of Melchizedek’s favor” (Isaiah 61:2, modified) and for his hosts, together with the holy ones of God…” (Wise, pg 592)
this pg number does not seem to be correct can you double check?
I want to try to see what he is getting at here
I don't know why he would change "the LORD" to Melchizedek...or the need to modify יהוה‎

ב לִקְרֹא שְׁנַת-רָצוֹן לַיהוָה, וְיוֹם נָקָם לֵאלֹהֵינוּ, לְנַחֵם, כָּל-אֲבֵלִים.2 To proclaim the year of the LORD's good pleasure, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I'm ok with the idea that Hanukkah (Festival of Lights) might have something to do with Messiah
I think it would

this pg number does not seem to be correct can you double check?
Page 592 is correct.
I want to try to see what he is getting at here
Per Wise, page 591,
“He [scribe] understands the jubilee-year remission of debts as referring not merely to prosaic matters of money, but to the forgiveness of sin. The author declares that the agent of this salvation is to be none other than Melchizedek, a mysterious figure referenced only twice in the Bible, Gen 14, Psalm 110. For our author, Melchizedek is an enormously exalted divine being to whom are applied names generally reserved for God alone: the Hebrew names el and elohim. In the author’s citation of Isaiah 61:2,…Melchizedek is substituted even for this most holy name of [nation]] Israel’s God.”

I don't know why he would change "the LORD" to Melchizedek...or the need to modify יהוה‎

ב לִקְרֹא שְׁנַת-רָצוֹן לַיהוָה, וְיוֹם נָקָם לֵאלֹהֵינוּ, לְנַחֵם, כָּל-אֲבֵלִים.2 To proclaim the year of the LORD's good pleasure, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
My best guess is that the author perceives YHWH and Ruach Elohim metaphorically as the younger and elder sons of The Most High God, aka, El. The younger son is inferior to the elder son so he must pass authority to the latter.

But in our material world, YHWH APPEARS to be the elder son, because he rules the material world which comes first TO US, but the “new heaven and new earth” come last, to the elect. Which is why, according to the type in scripture, the older shall serve the younger (Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob). Again, the first shall become last and the last shall become first.

Since Melchizedek is a priest to the Most High God and intermediary for the “sons of light”, he is the ruler of the end of things, whereas, YHWH rules the beginning of things, ie, the material world. IOW, the sensible cosmos or world is in transition, is passing from one thing into another, is becoming something (not yet complete), and the one who rules at the end is Melchizedek, priest to the Most High God, aka, El. In a sense, YHWH is becoming salvation (“Yeshua”), IN the sons of light! The old is passing away, and the new comes. And the TOR as servant to Melchizedek is announcing the end from the beginning.

BTW, I cannot help but see a correlation between Isaiah 53:11 and the the Teacher of Righteousness leading the sons of light. Per the DSC, he made atonement for the sons of light. Have you noticed this before from the Great Isaiah Scroll?

“Out of his anguish he shall see LIGHT;
he shall find satisfaction through his KNOWLEDGE.
The righteous one (TOR?), my servant, shall make many RIGHTEOUS,
and he shall bear their iniquities.”
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Page 592 is correct.
perhaps I have a different book of his - "Dead Sea Scrolls - A New Translation" ...only has 513 pages including the index

Melchizedek is substituted even for this most holy name of [nation]] Israel’s God.”
if he is using the God of Israel, Messiah, and (a certain) Melchizedek person interchangeably then I can see that

The righteous one (TOR?), my servant, shall make many RIGHTEOUS,
and he shall bear their iniquities.”
if this is Messiah, the final Melchizedek, who is God incarnate, Jesus of Nazareth, then sure
anything else I would question

TOR was martyred around 67 B.C.
this wouldn't be Messiah, who most likely died in 32ad IMO

he is the ruler of the end of things, whereas, YHWH rules the beginning of things
"I (Jesus) Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
“He [scribe] understands the jubilee-year remission of debts as referring not merely to prosaic matters of money, but to the forgiveness of sin. The author declares that the agent of this salvation is to be none other than Melchizedek, a mysterious figure referenced only twice in the Bible, Gen 14, Psalm 110. For our author, Melchizedek is an enormously exalted divine being to whom are applied names generally reserved for God alone: the Hebrew names el and elohim. In the author’s citation of Isaiah 61:2,…Melchizedek is substituted even for this most holy name of [nation]] Israel’s God.”
if the Qumran community/Essenes thought Messiah would be a Melchizedek, and is God incarnate
then that would fit the premise of the OP
How does that square with what Wise thinks they believed (a far as you understand)?

Does he think the Melchi in Gen 14 is a Christophany?
or think the Essenes thought it was that?
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
"I (Jesus) Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
“The character and fate of all humankind reside with these [two] spirits…God has appointed these [two] spirits as equals until the last age, and set an everlasting enmity between their divisions...Fierce dispute attends every point of decision, for they can never agree. In his mysterious insight and glorious wisdom God has countenanced an era in which perversity triumphs,
BUT
at the time appointed for visitation He shall destroy such forever…By his truth God shall then purify all human deeds, refine some of humanity so as to extinguish every perverse spirit from the inward parts of the flesh, cleansing from every wicked deed by a Holy Spirit.”

IOW, “I [Prince of Truth] make ALL THINGS new. (Rev 21:5)

Key
1) “God“ here is “the God Most High”.
2) The Prince of Truth is associated with ”a Holy Spirit”.
3) The spirit of perversity “triumphs” in the material world today “until the last age” for some “mysterious insight” (not explained by the TOR).

BUT there comes a day when the Prince of Truth receives the kingdom forever and he gathers the sons of light from the four corners of the earth and “makes all things new.” Thus, he asserts his authority over all things from beginning to end.
(Wise, pg 121, DSC: “Charter of a Jewish Sectarian Association”)
 
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