the original Messianic Judaism?

Rachel Redux

Active member
Do you have a reference to where YHWH tells us not to use reason or evidence? Or is this just you talking?

Hey, I've given you several scriptures!
News flash! “Gnosis” is Greek for knowledge, so yes, I prefer knowledge over ignorance.
Gnosis isn't just knowledge. The stuff you're spouting here is mystic, chaos, anti-Christ.

You mean like this?

“But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.” (1 cor 2:7)
I doubt that Paul shared your doctrine.

I will let the readers judge between us who is into thinking and learning.
Definitely!

[QUOTE [I am quoting from the Dead Sea Scrolls written up to 200 B.C. What are you quoting from that makes sense?
You don't recognize the OT when you see it?

“Tempting”? Since when did studying somebodies interpretation of scripture become a temptation? The fact is that there are many corollaries between the New Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I would think a disciple of Christ would want to learn more about those who first wrote about him.

Your personal feelings have nothing to do with me. I recommend seeing a counselor if you are feeling insecure.
You are teaching contrary to anything taught in either Judaism or Christianity. And yes, I will speak out against it.
More from Paul:
O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you. 1 Timothy 6:20-21
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Hey, I've given you several scriptures!

You don't recognize the OT when you see it?


You are teaching contrary to anything taught in either Judaism or Christianity. And yes, I will speak out against it.
You are entitled to an opinion and it is a public forum and I have the obligation to explain why I think the way I do using reason and evidence.

More from Paul:
O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,” for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you. 1 Timothy 6:20-21
Exactly, avoid the “contradictions” and babble of those teaching error. For example, someone explaining how YHWH and Paul do not want us to apply reason to evidence, or someone accusing another of “not thinking” right after telling them not to use their understanding. That would be babbling and contradictions which should be avoided.
 
Last edited:

Rachel Redux

Active member
You are entitled to an opinion and it is a public forum and I have the obligation to explain why I think the way I do using reason and evidence.


Exactly, avoid the “contradictions” and babble of those teaching error. For example, someone explaining how YHWH and Paul do not want us to apply reason to evidence, or someone accusing another of “not thinking” right after telling them not to use their understanding. That would be babbling and contradictions which should be avoided.
M'kay. 😉
 

docphin5

Well-known member
<snip>

Since light signifies knowledge to the Essenes then it is not a stretch for them to associate the knowledge (Light) from the God Most High (Father-Sun) being revealed from scripture by the TOR himself, in association with that sacred year in scripture.

<snip>
Addendum

I found a reference from the Dead Sea Scrolls which supports my opinion above. Therefore, it is not just my opinion but the opinion of the Essenes themselves. There are similar references in other places but due to limited space I will only include this one.

And he shall make atonement for all those of his generation, and he shall be sent to all the children of his people. His command is like the command of heaven, and his teaching is like the will of God. The Sun everlasting will shine and its fire will give warmth to all the ends of the earth. It will shine in darkness; then will darkness vanish from the earth, and mist from the land.”

”They will speak many words against him, and many falsehoods; they will concoct lies and speak all kinds of slander against him. His generation is evil and perverse.

The hidden mysteries he shall reveal…for the one who does not understand he shall write…the Great Sea shall be quiet because of him…then the books of wisdom shall be opened…his command; and like…his wisdom…his teaching…”

(Wise, pg 313, 4Q541, frag 9)
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
The Messiah is - a single human being.(who is God incarnate) , “the seed”, promised to Abraham (and Adam). The “sons of light”..,is a - family of humans bound to their God, ie, The God Most High His Spirit indwells them. The- kingdom is (promised, to be fulfilled eventually. It is part of their inheritance) (Israel has a promise of a physical kingdom on Earth) God (indeed is a God of knowledge, but not in the Gnostic cult sense)
(Concerning Israel) “not all Israel are descended from Abraham (by Faith)”, says Paul. (They have to be made that, and Gentiles can be that as well) Scripture supports that assertion. There is a nation Israel and there is a “true-seeing Israel”. (the Church is not Israel, they are distinct) It is by the will of Him who foreknows and predestines them. IOW, he foreknows those who will (be HIs)
I'm deliberately playing loose with yr text for an example...
take out the gobbledygook I think is unbiblical and clarify a few things
and yr on to something
 
Last edited:

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
“The man who murmurs against the secret teaching of the Yahad is to be banished, never to return.” (Wise, pg 128)

Most likely people who accused the Yahad of “self-absorption” and “smugness” for holding a “secret teaching” of scripture were expelled from the group. Or if anyone deviated from the secret teaching then their food rations were reduced for TWO years.

”The man whose spirit deviates from the secret teaching of the Yahad, such that he forsakes the truth and walks in the stubbornness of his heart—if he repents, he is to be punished by two years reduced rations.” (Wise, pg 128)

That is how important their revealed meaning of the Law was! It was so important that they concealed it from nation Israel. The only ones who could be taught it were the anointed leaders who joined their community.

It sounds like a cult teaching but for them it was a matter of life and death. But the interesting thing is that their cult teachings ended up in the scriptures of Christianity: the Way, the baptizer, the coming Messiahs, the apocalypse, the new covenant, the duality (satan versus Jesus), the allegorizing of scripture by Paul/Jesus, the sacrament of baptism, the Lord’s supper, so on and so on, founded by the TOR.

There is a reason the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found if nothing else than to honor him who founded the secret teaching revealed from the Law which spread all over the earth. In this way, the true shepherd of Israel has made his mark upon the world. Arguably, a king of many nations.
Yep, the mystery religions, cults, all say they've received a secret teaching to one or a select few. This fits Paul like a glove.

Contrary to the revelation to hundreds of thousands to millions of people at Sinai where Moses was without question shown to be the true prophet, YHWH the one and only true God, the divine will revealed in the ten sayings, and the true teaching that God has no physical form.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
hundreds of thousands to millions of Rebels who died in the Wilderness - never seeing the Promise
because they didn't believe and trust Moses, much less God Himself

"‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" Luke 16
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me." John 5

nothing New under the Sun Ecclesiastes 1:9
 
Last edited:

American Gothic

Well-known member
follow the Science -

"After 150 years of continuous discoveries, essential information about human origins remains elusive … Even worse, relatively complete fossil apes undisputedly assigned to early members of the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages remain to be found.

Such contrasting views about dryopiths stem from their incomplete and fragmentary fossil record coupled with pervasive homoplasy. However, because these factors are equal for all researchers, their different conclusions must also relate to analytical differences (e.g., taxonomy, sampling, polymorphic and continuous trait treatment). The root of the conflict is the remarkable differences in subjective definition and scoring of complex morphologies (e.g., “incipient supraorbital torus”). … [T]he phylogenetic and geographic origin of hominines remains contentious.

The decades-long feud regarding arboreality and bipedalism in A. afarensis exemplifies the complexity of inferring function from anatomy. … The mosaic nature of hominoid morphological evolution makes the functional reconstruction of fossil apes especially challenging, … Competing hypotheses about the locomotor behavior immediately preceding hominin bipedalism include terrestrial knuckle walking (15), palmigrade quadrupedalism (93), and different types of arboreal (orthograde) behaviors such as climbing and suspension (7), vertical climbing (139), or arboreal bipedalism and suspension (104, 140).

Humans are storytellers: Theories of human evolution often resemble “anthropogenic narratives” that borrow the structure of a hero’s journey to explain essential aspects such as the origins of erect posture, the freeing of the hands, or brain enlargement (166). Intriguingly, such narratives have not drastically changed since Darwin (166). We must be aware of confirmation biases and ad hoc interpretations by researchers aiming to confer their new fossil the starring role within a preexisting narrative. Evolutionary scenarios are appealing because they provide plausible explanations based on current knowledge, but unless grounded in testable hypotheses, they are no more than “just-so stories” (167)."

 
Last edited:

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Most human origins stories are not compatible with known fossils … the number of species in the human family tree has exploded, but so has the level of dispute concerning early human evolution … However, many of these fossils show mosaic combinations of features that do not match expectations for ancient representatives of the modern ape and human lineages. As a consequence, there is no scientific consensus on the evolutionary role played by these fossil apes. … Overall, the researchers found that most stories of human origins are not compatible with the fossils that we have today."


“When you look at the narrative for hominin origins, it’s just a big mess — there’s no consensus whatsoever.” - Sergio Almecija
 
Last edited:

docphin5

Well-known member
I'm deliberately playing loose with yr text for an example...
take out the gobbledygook I think is unbiblical and clarify a few things
and yr on to something
That is wrong to misrepresent what I said by changing my words. I have reported your post to the moderators for that reason.

Please do not put words in my mouth again.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Yep, the mystery religions, cults, all say they've received a secret teaching to one or a select few. This fits Paul like a glove.

Contrary to the revelation to hundreds of thousands to millions of people at Sinai where Moses was without question shown to be the true prophet, YHWH the one and only true God, the divine will revealed in the ten sayings, and the true teaching that God has no physical form.
At we least we seem to agree that the ideas of the Essenes and Paul’s epistles are associated. It certainly supports the idea that the former is the original form of the latter both using the same pesher approach or allegorizing to scripture.

If one were to set aside the Gospel stories then Paul’s epistles of a celestial Messiah whom he names “Yeshua“ indwelling ”sons of light” is essentially the Essene teaching of a “prince of truth” inhabiting “sons of light”, but minus the outward practices of ritual purity: circumcision, food requirements, sabbath observance, that seemed important to the essenes.

With regards to outward ritual purity I scanned the Dead Sea Scrolls for any comment as to its efficacy for salvation and found none. Arguably, ritual purity is a symbolic practice representing soul processes or celestial events based on the Dead Sea Scrolls. If so, then Paul apparently dispensed with the requirements of ritual purity when translating the Essene “glad tidings” for the Gentiles.

Therefore, Gospels aside, the only apparent difference in theology between the Essenes and Paul’s epistles is Paul‘s naming the Prince of Truth, “Yeshua”. But even that can be associated to the Essenes who held the book of Jubilees as authoritative. In that book time ends with Yeshua or Joshua leading his chosen ones into the “promised land” followed by eternal peace.

With those differences arguably reconciled (ritual purity and the name of the Spirit being Yeshua) then Paul and Essene theology were essentially identical. IOW, I read the Dead Sea Scrolls and I hear an echo in Paul’s epistles.

What about the Gospel stories set aside in the earlier part of this post? How do they fit in?

The author of GoMark collapses actual events surrounding the TOR and Paul and writes a fantastic story of “two anointed ones”, namely, “John the Baptizer” and “Yeshau”, revealing mysteries from heaven, abrogating the ritual purity requirements of the Mosaic Law, harassed by Pharisees, and eventually martyred. Fantastic stories of miracles and bodily resurrection are added to lend authority to these prophets.

My point is this.

The Gospel stories do for modern Christianity what the Exodus stories do for modern Judaism, that is, inspire devotion to a mythical figure, respectively. Jesus raising the dead is no different (in mythical terms) than Moses parting the red sea or turning his staff into a serpent.

And the Paul’s epistles did for gnostic Christianity what the Dead Sea scrolls did for the Jewish Essenes, that is, inspire devotion to the celestial Messiah indwelling pious, virtuous souls and bringing order to the cosmos.

Therefore, modern Judaism and Christianity are alike in that both are zealous for their mythical leader and they both reject the pesher approach to scripture favoring the literal meaning instead. They both see fulfillment of prophecy here on earth as their reward.

Whereas, gnostic Christianity and the Essenes are alike in that they are zealous for the inner spirit or anointed Joshua who leads them to an intelligible, ”new heaven and earth”, aka, “the promised land”; and they reject the “letter of the [Mosaic] Law” favoring its allegorical/symbolical meaning. They both see fulfillment (consummation) of prophecy in a “new heaven and earth” perceived by or revealed by the spirit to their respective leader.

So you, American Gothic, and myself are merely three perspectives of the same information. Each of us thinks he/she holds the truth.
 
Last edited:

American Gothic

Well-known member
The Gospel stories do for modern Christianity what the Exodus stories do for modern Judaism, that is, inspire devotion to a mythical figure, respectively. Jesus raising the dead is no different (in mythical terms) than Moses ----- parting the red sea or turning his staff into a serpent.
modern Judaism and Christianity are alike in that both are zealous for their mythical leader

Doubt any Jews here will agree about the claim for Judaism - bar Secular, or very liberal of some kind.

They both see fulfillment (consummation) of prophecy
Prophecy can be viewed as History that has yet to come to pass.
God sees the End from the Beginning, so to Him it might as well have already happened.
If the History can't be viewed as accurate, than for little legitimate reason would the Prophecy be.
They are two ways to know the Scripture is true.
To toss one or the other destroys the Jewish foundation of the Bible for Them both.
 
Last edited:

American Gothic

Well-known member
If the Hebrew Scriptures are Myth, then Jews are just saying they are special for a purpose, but they really are not.

It seems clear to me from History that the Jewish people actually are unique and special among the peoples of Earth for a purpose.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
If the Hebrew Scriptures are Myth, then Jews are just saying they are special for a purpose, but they really are not.

It seems clear to me from History that the Jewish people actually are unique and special among the peoples of Earth for a purpose.
The ONLY thing special about nation Israel is that their prophets were given the “oracles of God”, according to the apostle Paul. Have you heard of him?

“Then what advantage has the Jew?... To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.” (Romans 3:1)

Genetics has nothing to do with it, “for not all Israel descended from Abraham.”

Geography has nothing to do with it, for the literal land allegedly promised to nation Israel has been ruled by foreigners for most of its history. And even now nation Israel hangs on by a thread.

There is a sound reason for this.

Because the promises are not actually about dirt in Palestine or about geneaology or blood sacrifice or new moons or festivals or lopping off the foreskin BUT these are mere shadows or symbols for heavenly things. (Col 2:17)

Therefore, if the oracles are interpreted by pesher or allegory to be about heavenly things versus things on earth then the Essenes and Paul have the right perspective. That is exactly what Paul says.

“But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.” (1 cor 2:7)

Finally, you can have the last word for I have discussed with you long enough to know you will believe what you imagine, despite the evidence laid out before you. Just as you deny evolution because it does not fit with what you imagine to be true despite the entire educated world accepting it, so will you do the same to scripture.

Cheers, best of luck to you.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Genetics has nothing to do with it, “for not all Israel descended from Abraham.”
Geography has nothing to do with it, for the literal land allegedly promised to nation Israel has been ruled by foreigners for most of its history. And even now nation Israel hangs on by a thread.
If God doesn't keep His promises to them (physical Israel), there is no reason for Him to keep His promises to anyone else.
 
Top