the original Messianic Judaism?

American Gothic

Well-known member
"This concerns the beginning of the final generation (possibly of that age of Torah) -

“Look among the nations and watch—
Be utterly astounded!
For I will work a work in your days
Which you would not believe, though it were told you."
Habakkuk 1:5

First, this concerns the unfaithful who followed the liar and refused to listen to the teacher of righteousness,
whose words are from the very mouth of God. These are the unfaithful of the new covenant, who have not
believed in the covenant of God, having blasphemed His holy name.
Second, this also concerns the unfaithful at the end of days.
These men of violence, who are the breakers of the covenant, will not believe when they hear everything that
happens in the final generation from the Priest, whom God gave the good news that he might interpret
all the words of His servants the Prophets, thru whom He foretold all that would happen to His people
and His land."

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American Gothic

Well-known member
"This concerns the beginning of the final generation (possibly of that age of Torah) -
unsure if they are again specifically referencing those of the final Jubilee of the age of Torah
or maybe in general referring to those of the coming age of Grace

"...the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages." Ephesians 3 (Literal Standard Version)

"generation" gets used in different ways throughout the Bible
maybe in some instances in the scrolls it refers to an actual Jubilee
Jubilees, specific ages, and then the totality of the ages being components of the calendar

American Gothic

Well-known member
Part of why Enoch had to bug out for a while, was because people started to revere/semi-deify
"holy" people, ancestors, relics, locations, etc. and he didn't want to be looked at that way himself
these activities were part of the pre-Flood paganism,
and they might be found in any pagan-ish system

those things historically and still presently can found in certain branches of Christiandom

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Fallen angels taught men the use of magical incantations
that would force demons to obey them. After the Flood,
Ham the son of Noah (re)discovered this and taught it to
his sons. This became ingrained into the Egyptians, Persians,
and Babylonians.
Nimrod was handed this knowledge and by it caused men to
go away from the worship of God and go into diverse and
erratic superstitions and they began to be governed by the
signs of the stars and motions of the planets." (astrology, zodiac fate, magic, incantations, gods/lesser spirits)
- "Recognitions of Clement" (of Rome)

American Gothic

Well-known member
there would be Knowledge and time keeping system that is from God
and then all the manifestations of corruptions of
as mankind gets away from the only absolutely dependable sources of Truth (God and His word)

American Gothic

Well-known member
(astrology, zodiac fate, magic, incantations, gods/lesser spirits)

"And Abram asked his father saying,

'Father, tell me, where is God who created Heaven and Earth
and all the sons of men upon the Earth, and who created thee
and me?'
And Terah answered his son Abram and said,
'Behold, those who created us are all in the house.'
And Abram said to his father,
'My lord, show them to me I pray thee,'
and Terah brought Abram into the chamber of the inner court,
and Abram saw, and behold, the whole chamber was
full of wood and stone,
twelve great images and others less than they..."
- book of Jasher ch. 11


"And some make them in the figures of men, of gold and silver,
and the figures receive the influence of the stars, and tell them
future things, and in this manner were the images that Rachel
stole from her father, Laban." - book of Jasher ch. 31

she didn't want them used to figure out
where they (Jacob and fam) were going

I don't think the sacrifice of the (mandrakes, by Rachel) had been commanded
she could have gone to Melchi Isaac for advice, and maybe he gave her directive
to take the issue to God somehow

Jacob didn't want to hear about it
being mr. studly making babies left and right,
it obviously wasn't he who had the problem!
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American Gothic

Well-known member
there's weeks (of days) 7 days
and there's weeks of years, 7 years
a la Daniel's ch. 9 prophecy

a basic thing that got corrupted early was the Tekufah equinox/solstice concept
days outside the counted months that could be used for reflection and looking at the prophecies
to see if anything had come to pass recently

pagans turned them and the midpoints into something else - I guess still in use
looks like the winter months are important
I didn't think they were on the Jewish calendar, until the addition of Hanukkah
significant? I'm not sure

"in those days the peoples of Sodom and Gomorrah, and of the whole five cities
were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord...(and
there was a certain valley nearby where they used to do stuff, they)
went there four times a year..." book of Jasher ch. 18
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"...your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will
become like God, knowing both good and evil."
Genesis 3:5

"In this way, even by magic, which is indeed only
the second idolatry, wherein they pretend that after
death they will become like demons, just as they were
supposed in the first and literal idolatry to become gods."
- Tertulian "Treatise on the soul"

"An international, intellectual and fast-growing cultural movement known as transhumanism intends the use of genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence and nanotechnology (GRIN technologies) as tools that will radically redesign our minds, our memories, our physiology, our offspring, and even perhaps, as Joel Garreau in his bestselling book Radical Evolution claims, our very souls." - Thomas Horn "Forbidden Gates"

"There shall be scoffers in the last days, walking after their own lusts,
and saying,
'Where is the promise of His coming?'
for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they are
from the beginning of the creation.
For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God
the heavens were of old, and the Earth standing out of the water
in the water: Whereby the world that was then was,
being overflowed with water, perished." 2 Peter 3:3-6

people can even definitively know the true God exists
and still not want anything to do with Him and think
they don't need Him

American Gothic

Well-known member
characteristics of the pre-Flood paganism (taught by the fallen angels)

1. a unique individual god/idol in each home
2. evolution into a god/ become one after death
3. the original creator God ceased to exist/or is unknowable/or unneeded
4. Salvation not needed
5. observation of heavenly bodies for omens
6. astrology/zodiac
7. ritual use of blood
8. evolution/reincarnation
9. interest in ghosts/demons/nature spirits
10. homosexual marriage

"But I cannot here omit that which some erring philosphers
say, that men and the other animals arose from the Earth
without any author."
- Lactantius "Divine Institutes"

"Rabbi Hunna said in the name of Rabbi Joseph,
'The generation before the Flood was not wiped out until
they wrote marriage documents for the union of a man
and a male, or to an animal.'"
- Genesis Rabba 26, Leviticus Rabba 23

"Rabbi Hiyyah taught:
The passage reads -
'I am the One who punished the generation of the Flood...
and in the future I will punish those who do as they did.
The generations of the Flood were wiped off the Earth when
they were soaked in sexual sin."
- Leviticus Rabba 23

"And what did they do? a man got married to a man, and woman
to a woman, a man to a woman and her daughter, and a woman
to two men...'therefore, you shall not walk in there statues'"
Sifra Acharei Mot, Parashah 9:8 commentary on Leviticus
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"The arts of astrologers, soothsayers, augers, and magicians
were made known by the angels who sinned, and are
forbidden by God."
- Tertulian "Apology"

"Christians do not employ incantations, or spells
to perform miracles."
- Origin "Against Celsus"

"Demons...invented astrology, soothsaying, divination,
and those productions that are called oracles, necromancy,
and the art of magic."
- Lactantius "Divine Institutes"

"The Church does not perform anything by means of
angelic invocations, incantations, or by any other wicked
outside art, but directing her prayers to the Lord."
- Irenaeus "Against Heresies"

"God is not to be sought by means of letters, syllables,
and numbers."
- Irenaeus "Against Heresies"

"Astrology, soothsaying, divination, oracles, necromancy, and
the art of magic are the invention of demons, and vain...
and mingle false things with the true."
- Lactantius "Divine Institutes"

American Gothic

Well-known member
"(He)...does not have a very high view of humanity. In Sociobiology he stated that “in evolutionary time the individual organism counts for almost nothing.” The only significance of an individual organism is to reproduce: “the organism is only DNA’s way of making more DNA.”

"We were created not by a supernatural intelligence but by chance and necessity as one species out of millions of species in Earth’s biosphere. Hope and wish for otherwise as we will, there is no evidence of an external grace shining down upon us, no demonstrable destiny or purpose assigned us, no second life vouchsafed us for the end of the present one. We are, it seems, completely alone. And that in my opinion is a very good thing. It means we are completely free." (Knowledge of this premise somehow sets us free)

"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness." Romans 6:20
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American Gothic

Well-known member

the words of the LORD thru Jeremiah to -
"Pashhur the son of Immer, the priest who was also chief governor in the house of the Lord...
Moreover (the LORD) will deliver all the wealth of this city, all its produce, and all its precious things; all the treasures of the kings of Judah I will give into the hand of their enemies, who will plunder them, seize them, and carry them to Babylon.
And you, Pashhur, and all who dwell in your house, shall go into captivity. You shall go to Babylon, and there you shall die, and be buried there, you and all your friends, to whom you have prophesied lies." Prophet vs. false prophet
Jeremiah 20
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"My children, observe my commands.
I have explained to you all that I have learned from my fathers.
I am clear from all your ungodliness and transgressions which you will do
in the end of the age against the Savior of the world, acting ungodly,
deceiving Israel, and raising up against it great evils from the Lord.
You will deal lawlessly with Israel, so that Jerusalem will not endure your
wickedness, but the veil of the temple will be rent, so as not to cover
your shame. You will be scattered as captives among the heathen, and will be for a reproach,
for a curse, and for a trampling underfoot.
For the house of the Lord shall be called Jerusalem, as is contained
in the book of Enoch the Righteous."
- testament of Levi, mentions this as well
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"Consider a river that can move trees and rocks.
If it is divided into many small streams, the Earth
just dries them up. So will you be if you become divided.
Do not divide yourselves into two heads, for everything
the Lord has made has only one head. He gave pairs of
shoulders, hands, and feet, but all the members are
subject unto the one head.
I have learned by the writings of my fathers that in the last days
you will depart from the Lord and be divided in Israel.
You will follow two kings, work every abomination, and
worship every idol. Your enemies will lead you captive, and
you will dwell among the nations with all infirmities, tribulations,
and anguish of soul.
After these things, you will remember the Lord, and repent.
He will lead you back, for He is merciful and full of compassion,
not imputing evil to the sons of men because they are flesh.
The spirits of error deceive them in all their ways.
After these things the Lord Himself will arise to you.
The light of righteousness, healing, and compassion will be
in his wings. He will redeem all captivity of the sons of men
from Belial, and every spirit of error will be trodden down.
He will bring all the nations to zeal for Him, and you will see
in the fashion of a man whom the Lord will choose.
Jerusalem is His name. With the wickedness of your words you
will you provoke Him to anger again, and you will be cast
away, even unto the time of consummation."
- testament of Zebulun

Zebulun’s territory was located in what later became known as Galilee, in Northern Israel
"In Galilee of the Gentiles (conquered in the past after Israelite division)
The people who walked in darkness
Have seen a great light;
Those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death,
Upon them a light has shined." Isaiah 9
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"My children, fear the Lord, and guard against Satan and his spirits.
Draw close to God, and to the angel that intercedes for you, for he is
the mediator between God and man
for the peace of Israel."
- testament of Dan

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself a ransom for all" 1 Timothy 2

"It will be in the time of iniquity of Israel, that the Lord will depart from them,
and will go after those who will do His will, for unto none of the angels will
it be unto Him.
His name in every place in Israel and among the Gentiles will be Savior."
- testament of Dan

it says after he died
"his sons buried him in Egypt, and later they carried his bones to the
side of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"
I've sometimes wondered if the remains of the Sons remained in Egypt
but I guess they all were taken home eventually
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Well-known member
For one, Egypt ruled itself for thousands of years and was a mighty power militarily and economically for most of that time. I believe Memphis is on record for the longest self-rule of any city-state on the planet.
What does this have to do with their gods? Is Egypt an economic power now, or renowned for their technologies or contributions to mankind?

Whereas, the promised land allegedly given to Abraham has not turned out as expected, has it?
Israel inherited it. What's the problem? Israel, Abraham's seed has blessed the nations probably more than any other. Have you considered that promise?

If you want to compare myths to myths then Egypt has some whoppers too. But it is vain to compare such things. The myths were always intended to be understood esoterically, something you wouldn’t have a clue about.
Kinda like the myths of Christianity and gnosticsm? Aren't you still waiting for you god-man?

It is not worth arguing about. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. best of luck.
Rotfl... ok.


Well-known member
The fulfillment in their days was the “light to the Gentiles”.
Which the Jews with their contributions have been to the nations.

It's funny that Jesus during his "first" visit never said he was a light to the gentiles.

What ultimately they revealed is that God is not only the God of the Jews but God of the Gentiles also.
That was revealed at Sinai when multitudes came out of Egypt besides the Jews. One law for the native and stranger.

And that the Jewish particularism based on outward purity is merely symbolic and even idolatrous or sensual in absence of the inner spiritual quality.
Which is why both are stressed in the Torah. Do you have something else new to share?

Simply, there is no respect of persons with God; but in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34)
And if you fear Him, keep His commandments.

Listen to me, O coastlands,
and give attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.
He made my mouth like a sharp sword;
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me a polished arrow;
in his quiver he hid me away.
And he said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my right is with the LORD,
and my recompense with my God.”
And now the LORD says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him;
and that Israel might be gathered to him—
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD,
and my God has become my strength—
he says:

“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob

and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation (Yesuati or Jesus) may reach to the end of the earth.” (Isaiah 49)

✔️Finished, fulfilled, completed as prophesied, as foretold!
Never happened in Jesus' time or with his coming. Such a shame. Though, Isaiah was a light to Israel, Israel to the nations, etc.
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"You (his ancestors) will be prideful because of the priesthood,
lifting yourselves up among men. Not only so, but being puffed up
also against the commands of God, you will scoff at the holy things
mocking in despitefulness.
Therefore, the temple which the Lord will chose will be desolate in
uncleanness, and you will be captives throughout all nations.
You will be an abomination among them, and you will receive reproach
and everlasting shame from the righteous judgement of God.
All who see you will flee from you. Were it not for God's promises to
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
, our fathers, would not one from my
seed should be left on Earth."
- testament of Levi

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
“The more they increased,
The more they sinned against Me;
I will change their glory into shame.
They eat up the sin of My people;
They set their heart on their iniquity.
And it shall be: like people, like priest.
So I will punish them for their ways,
And reward them for their deeds.
For they shall eat, but not have enough;
They shall commit harlotry, but not increase;
Because they have ceased obeying the Lord."
Hosea 4

American Gothic

Well-known member
“We always thought of mutation as basically random across the genome,” said Grey Monroe, an assistant professor in the UC Davis Department of Plant Sciences who is lead author on the paper. “It turns out that mutation is very non-random and it’s non-random in a way that benefits the plant. It’s a (like) totally new way of thinking about mutation.”

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American Gothic

Well-known member
"I had a dream where I saw two Watchers. They were arguing
about me, became a heated argument about me.
I asked them why... They answered me,
'We have been made the masters of the Earth, and rule over all
the nations of men.' Then they asked me,
'Which one of us do you choose...' I looked closely at one of them
and he looked frightening, like a serpent, and he wore multicolored
clothes, but he was extremely dark...
I looked at the other and...his face was like an adder *, covered with...
both together, over his eyes..."

"...this Watcher, 'Who is he?' He answered me saying,
'This Watcher...and his three names are Belial, Prince of Darkness, and Melkiresha' (king of Rosh, Ezekiel 38)
I said, 'My Lord, what rule...'
He said to me,
'...and all his paths and all his words only lead to darkness, and he is...
in darkness...
He rules over all darkness, ...and I rule over all light and all..."
- testament of Amram Dead Sea Scroll 4Q545

* bump
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