the original Messianic Judaism?

American Gothic

Well-known member
'This Watcher...and his three names are Belial, Prince of Darkness, and Melkiresha'

'...(but) all his paths and all his words only lead to darkness, and he is...
in darkness...
He rules over all darkness, ." - testament of Amram (father of Aaron, Moses, Miriam)

"Our regal mother (Eve) was not deceived by a magical snake, but by a majestic member
of (an) elder race, offering to illuminate her mind with the transcendent knowledge (gnosis) of the morning stars.
Mesmerized by the cunning of the dragon prince, she hung on his every word, eyes wide with wonder,
as he tempted her with the promises of apotheotic glory.

...Eve's mind filled with visions of grandeur,
She and Adam could learn the secrets of the elder race (sons of God) and become like gods."

"Like the false apostles, Satan disguises his evil intentions behind a veil of cunning words
and enchanting propositions."
- Tim Alberino "Birthright"
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"When God created the son of God who would become Satan
He sealed up the sum in two areas - beauty and wisdom -
the Hebrew expression meaning 'to fill a pattern' "
- Arnold Fruchtenbaum

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you."
Ezekiel 28

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Kohath went there to stay, dwell, and rebuild...many of the
sons of my uncles together with...since the work was very great
and would continue until our dead would be buried there.
In the year when I began, news of a war brewing worried me.
I allowed those of our company who wanted to return to Egypt to go
and I went on to finish the work and to bury them. They did not
help in finishing the tomb of my fathers. (cave of Machpelah)
My father Kohath, and my wife Jochebed, left me to stay and build
and provide them with all their needs from the land of Canaan.
We dwelt in Hebron while we were building.
War broke out between the Philistines and the Egyptians.
...they closed off the border of Egypt. It was impossible for my
wife to come here to Canaan from Egypt for forty-one years...
During all this time I was separated from Jochebed, who was in Egypt...
I in Canaan for she was not with me...
...I did not take another wife.
All I ever thought about was returning to Egypt in peace to see the
face of my wife."
- testament of Amram Dead Sea Scroll 4Q544

this apparently disagrees with a tradition in the Talmud saying Amram
divorced his wife
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American Gothic

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"Amram was one of seven righteous men who helped bring God’s presence back to earth."
- above

"...and I will explain to you your names...that he wrote for Moses, and also for Aaron...
I will explain to you the mystery of His worship. He is a holy priest to Most High God.
...his seed will be holy throughout the generations...
The seventh of the men of (God's) good will he will be called...and he will be said...
...and will be chosen as a priest forever..."
- testament of Amram Dead Sea Scroll 4Q547

a bit similar, the scroll might be referring to Enoch, the seventh from Adam who
preserved teachings (first scribe) or maybe the testaments of six patriarchs from Adam to Jared
before him which were passed down to Aaron, and Moses
chabad piece makes it about Abraham to Moses, not Enoch or Aaron

also, maybe reference for tradition of the names from Adam to Aaron being prophetic
and the priestly rituals themselves being prophetic
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"Hear also, my children, the visions which I saw.
There were twelve deer feeding, and the nine were divided and scattered
in the land, likewise also the three.
I saw that from Judah was born a virgin wearing a linen garment,
and from her went forth a lamb, without spot, and on his left hand was a lion.
All the beasts rushed against him, and the lamb overcame them.
and trampled them under foot.
Because of him, the angels, men, and all the Earth rejoiced.
These things will take place in their season, in the last days.
Therefore, my children, observe the commandments of the Lord, and
honor Judah and Levi.
From them will arise to you the lamb of God, by grace saving all
the Gentiles and Israel.
For his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, which will not be shaken,
but my kingdom among you will soon come to an end as a watcher's
hammock, which after the summer will not appear.

I know that after my death the Egyptians will afflict you, but God will
undertake your cause, and will bring you in to that which He promised
your fathers. But carry my bones up with you, for when my bones are
taken up, the Lord will be with you in light, and Belial will be in darkness
with the Egyptians."
- testament of Joseph

American Gothic

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'Which one of us do you choose...'
- testament of Amram Dead Sea Scroll 4Q545

At times, both God the Son and rebel son of God Lucifer
are described as lions.
Jesus is described as a lamb, and the Devil somewhat a wolf in sheep's clothing.

As Satan is described as a serpent, maybe a contrast of the two
would make sense of the oddness of Moses being told to make a bronze serpent
in Numbers 21.

The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

It wouldn't surprise Me if pre-incarnate God the son, and the most perfectly created angel looked a lot alike.
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"Mankind was created for fellowship in the family of God.
The King desired more than a dutiful servant when he breathed life into
Adam's earthen frame - he wanted a faithful son who would love without compulsion.
Love is only tested thru choice and expressed in action.
When a man chooses to marry a woman, he dedicates himself to her, shunning all others.
His faithfulness to her, or lack thereof, is an expression of his love.

It was for the sake of love that man was given a choice in the garden of Eden.
He could freely choose to be faithful to the King or join in the rebellion of His enemies.
The dragon was permitted to fraternalize with Adam and Eve in order to test their allegiance.

The scriptures paint a portrait of two antithetical sons - the faithful son and the unfaithful son.
The faithful son loves his father and is perfectly submitted to His authority.
The faithless son hates his father and is entirely insubordinate.
Both sons are represented by the two trees in the garden of Eden -
Jesus the tree of Life - obedience to the Father leads to divine fellowship and eternal life in the paradise of God
Satan the tree of knowledge - disobedience leads to eviction, alienation, and death.

In the same way, a son who loves his father will choose to be obedient to him, and
submit to his authority.
Love is the most precious commodity in the Universe."
- Tim Alberino "Birthright"
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"I planted a great vineyard on mount Lubar, and in four years it
produced great amounts of wine for me.
I brought out all the wine when the first feast came...(Genesis 9)

On that day I, my sons and grandsons, with all of our
wives and daughters, gathered together at the altar.

I laid down on my bed...and my mind stirred...(Noah dreams)

' you Noah, the king...and the decree...
to all the forests with all the birds of Heaven, the beasts of the field,
the cattle of the land, and the creeping things of the dry ground...'

The stones and the clay were cutting down the forest to make it a place
for themselves...also the gold, silver, brass, and iron were cutting
down the forest to make it a place for themselves.

...then I saw the olive tree had grown tall. It continued to
grow for many hours..."
- testament of Noah Dead Sea Scroll 1Q20 column 12-13

Noah sees the same metal empires as later prophets
overcoming cedar trees (nations)
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American Gothic

Well-known member
" were thinking about the tree with it's upper branch seperating
and budding with much fruit and foliage...

Understand you (Noah) are the great ceder tree that was standing before
you on the mountain...
the shoots that you saw adhering to the trunk were your three sons...

...the first (or top) shoot you saw adhering to the (great) cedar trunk, with one
branch from it and becoming an olive tree means (this) son
will not separate from you all his days (Shem) and among his seed
your name will be called."
- testament of Noah
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Israel's two re-gatherings -

1. current
return to part of the Land
return in unbelief
restored to the Land only
sets the stage for Tribulation (discipline)

2. future
return to all the land
return in faith
restored to the Land and the Lord
sets the stage for the Millenium (blessing)

- Andy Woods (borrowed form Randall Price)

American Gothic

Well-known member
"the Lord appeared to me in a vision. He showed me the conduct
of the sons of Heaven. I thought about this mystery a lot but did
not tell anyone about the vision...
the great Holy One sent the Watcher to instruct me..."
- testament of Noah DSS 1Q20 column 6

"A heavenly one appeared to me and said,
'Do not fear, Noah. I will be with you and all your sons
who will be like you, forever..."
- testament of Noah DDS 1Q20 column 11

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy."
Psalm 45

"If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"
Matthew 22

American Gothic

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"Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the Lord said, 'My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.' There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown." Genesis 6

"Notice how nonchalantly these enigmatic verses are inscribed by the author.
One cannot help but conclude that the meaning of them was already understood..."
- Tim Alberino "Birthright"

and more broadly discussed in other previous and known literary works

I feel the same about the Creation narrative as well, that it is just a sketch
but believing it is true I assume an accurate sketch and if fleshed out should make sense

American Gothic

Well-known member
Interesting that at the Transfiguration
Jesus was somewhere (my view) on Mount Hermon
and was joined by Moses and Elijah

Moses would have come from down below (Abraham's bosom) and
Elijah would have come from up above

an explanation I've heard for the "some here won't die before they see the Kingdom come with power"
stuff in Mark 9
is that Peter, James, and John got just a glimpse of what it is and will be like, six days later

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American Gothic

Well-known member
it's where the Watchers had come to -

and what is a Watcher?
the Masoretic text designates them as sons of God

the Aramaic ʿiyrin , rendered in Greek as ἐγρήγοροι, and in English "Watchers", "those who are awake"; "guard(ians)"

things like cherubim having many eyes or four faces (Ezekiel 10)
are possibly not morphologically descriptive but is dealing with their occupation
as in
"nothing gets past their gaze"

"the princes and wardens of the Kingdom" - Tim Alberino


American Gothic

Well-known member
Abram's prayer -

"And a word came into (Abram's) heart and he said,
'All the signs of all the stars, and the signs of the moon and the sun
are in the hand of the Lord. Why do I search them out?
If He desires, He causes it to rain, morning and evening, and if
He desires, He withholds it, and all things are in His hand.'
And he prayed than night and said,

'My God, Most High God, You alone art my God.
And You and Your dominion have I chosen. You have
created all things. And all things that are the work of your hands.
Deliver me from the hands of evil spirits who have sway over the
thoughts of men's hearts, and let them not lead me astray from
Thee, my God.
And establish now me and my seed forever, that we will not go
astray from henceforth and forevermore.
Shall I return unto Ur..., (and those) who seek my face that I
may return to them? or am I to remain here in this place?
The right path before You, prosper it in the hand of Your servant
that I may fulfill it, and that I may not walk in the deceitfulness
of my heart, O my God.' "
- book of Jubilees ch. 12

American Gothic

Well-known member
"For He gave to Noah and his sons a sign...
He set his bow in the cloud as a sign of the eternal covenant that there should
not again be a flood on the Earth to destroy it all the days of the Earth.
For this reason it is ordained and written on the heavenly tablets, that they should
celebrate the feast of weeks in this month once a year, to renew the (Noahide) covenant
every year. (Exodus 34:22)
And the whole festival was celebrated in Heaven from the day of creation till the days
of Noah - twenty-six jubilees and five weeks of years, and Noah and his sons observed
it for seven jubilees and one week of years, 'til the day of Noah's death, and from that day
Noah's sons did away with it, until the days of Abraham,
but Abraham observed it, and Isaac, and Jacob and his children up to thy days,
and in your days the children of Israel forgot it until you celebrated it anew on this mountain. (Sinai)"
- book of Jubilees ch. 6

remember Noah's covenant, then also
the giving of the Mosaic law to Israel
and then also the birth of the Chruch

"I brought out all the wine when the first feast came. On the first day of the first feast"
- testament of Noah
can't remember what my point was quoting this here, but maybe just that Noah celebrated some appointed feasts

some Jews seem to have a problem with the notion of God visiting Abraham and having a meal
but it seems obvious that eating and feasting go on in the Heavenly realms
even the manna that Israel ate in the wilderness is an angel food

It's cool how even a risen Messiah who could walk thru walls would chow down a bit with disciples
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"And do thou command the children of Israel to observe this festival in all
their generations for a commandment unto them: one day in the year of this
month they shall celebrate the festival.
For it is the feast of weeks and the feast of firstfruits -
this feast is twofold and of a double nature, according to what is written and
engraven concerning it to celebrate it.
"For I have written in the book of the first law..."

"...are (also) the days of remembrance, and the days of the seasons in the four divisions of the year. (Tekufah, I think)
These were written and ordained as a testimony forever...
And Noah ordained them for himself as feasts, for the generations forever, so that they have
become thereby a memorial unto him."
- book of Jubilees

events during the time Noah spent with/in the ark are said to coincide with these appointed days
when he was commanded to build the ark (also maybe Noah's birthday)
when the depths of the abysses opened
when they where closed
when the tops of the mountains were seen

American Gothic

Well-known member
I didn't know that a God fearing/Christian Goth was a thing.
I don't know how it is with other Christian communities
but my church was kinda progressive
not in an Emergent way, but in a post-Jesus People kinda way

I remember as a little kid dudes had beards and wore earth shoes and sandals and played in bands
most of that stuff I thought was rather lame, all Crosby Stills and Nash rip off
they also back then still did Hymns out of a book and I actually miss those songs from the 1800s-early 1900s

my crew were not the read Anne Rice and whatnot variety
but more gothy skate beachpunk cholo alternacore
I wanted to look like Nick Cave so bad, and did my best to pull it off
(young nick)
the powers that be'd at my Christian school tried so hard to rein in our Cool
but good luck with that
when Undercover played they would shut down our slam pit
Stryper actually played there for us once too and that was pretty Rockin'

to this day about 2/3rds of my clothes are black
to my mom's chagrin
ha, but she's still the Punkest person I know so....
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American Gothic

Well-known member
my friend at school went to a Baptist church, where his dad was the pastor
he got the whole "play your records backwards and it tells you to smoke dope" thing
I'd make him mixtapes of all the boss tunage
he even didn't like his son skating but it was exercise and his kid was not going out for football

it gets said that Punx don't die, they just go Rockabilly
one dude us little groms would copy was Steve Olson
who would wear a leather jacket in 90 degree weather like it was nothing

but I'm pretty sure he was influenced by Jay Haizlip aka "Alabamy"
a boy from the South who came west and showed everyone
how to rock n roll skate style
he was really obscure with only a few pictures in the magazines
and it took me forever to figure out who he was
turns out he's been a pastor in OC for over a decade

He's still rad looking with a hot wife and has been on TV
I hope he's not into Emergent or prosperity gospel and all
but it's dope if he is truly in Jesus

there's a bunch of legend skaters who have become Christians
it'll be cool in the Future to maybe
drop buy Rachel's place for a glass of wine or three
and then go out to do some slappies on curbs of Gold

why am I writing all this nonsense?
because this page needs a
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