the original Messianic Judaism?

American Gothic

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Essenes, Qumran community, Dead Sea Scrolls, extrabiblical History, testaments of early patriarchs, "the Way"
prophecy, Israel, the Jewish people from a Messianic (Jesus) perspective, "The Chosen" tv series,
Cal-Mex food, skateboarding, car culture, etc. etc.


Well-known member of my favorite places. I used to live in Phoenix near Paradise Valley. I'd live there now if I could.
I know the place. I don't miss getting stuck on 101 or 202. ;)

Definitely a different kind of beauty in the Southwest. But, it definitely gets hot 🔥 in the summer. I never saw little birds gasping for air until we lived there.

Rachel Redux

Active member
I know the place. I don't miss getting stuck on 101 or 202. ;)

Definitely a different kind of beauty in the Southwest. But, it definitely gets hot 🔥 in the summer. I never saw little birds gasping for air until we lived there.
When I first moved there, my car broke down on the way to work. I remember while I was waiting for the tow truck, the pavement was burning my feet through my shoes. I had to find a spot of dirt to stand on. Tires don't last as long because of the hot streets. Still, I loved it there.


Well-known member
When I first moved there, my car broke down on the way to work. I remember while I was waiting for the tow truck, the pavement was burning my feet through my shoes. I had to find a spot of dirt to stand on. Tires don't last as long because of the hot streets. Still, I loved it there.
I definitely loved the variety of places like Tucson, Sedona, Flagstaff, Grand Canyon, etc.

American Gothic

Well-known member
Who was Barnabas?

Barnabas was born at Salamis.
Both his parents were Jewish, decedent from the tribe of Levi.
According to Clement, he was the first Christian to witness in Rome,
leading to Clement's own conversion.
Barnabas is listed as one of the apostles who resided in Antioch.
He introduced Paul to the other Apostles, confirming that he was truly a Believer,
and they travelled together on mission trips.
In a historical work, Theodorus Lecter stated that they Barnabas and Paul had
studied together at the school of Gamaliel.
Barnabas had tried to witness to Saul, but he would have none of it until his conversion
on the road to Damascus.
Hippolytus and Eusebius say that Barnabas was one of 70 disciples sent out by Jesus,
and if this is true then he would have been an eyewitness of our Lord.
When Barnabas died, he was buried on his native island of Cyprus.

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American Gothic

Well-known member
same sort of language as Qumran/DSScrolls/"the Way"

"Let us go on now to another kind of knowledge and doctrine.
There are two ways of knowledge and power -
the one is of light, the other is of darkness.
There is a great difference between the two ways.
For over the one is God's angels, who teach the way of light,
and over the other are Satan's angels.
The Lord our God rules over the one for all eternity; and Satan, the
prince of the air, rules over the present time of iniquity."
- epistle of Barnabas

The Lord is the light in Genesis 1, and in revelation 21 IMO

" (more) need of the sun or of the moon to shine..., for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light."
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American Gothic

Well-known member
what commandments was Abel obligated to keep?
what covenant was he living under?
what were its conditions?
who was his mediating Priest?
where might any such info be recorded/explained in Scripture?

"... righteous Abel" Matthew 23

I guess -
whatever Adam told him to do (or God thru Adam) / maybe conscience as well
Adamic covenant
believe in the promised Savior to come, bring the proper typological/prophetic sacrifice when required
Adam as the acting king/priest/prophet (Melchizedek), ultimately Messiah
can be derived from book of Jasher and Genesis
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American Gothic

Well-known member
did Noah know about this "Sola Scriptura"?
did he even know the Scriptures?

"...Noah was a righteous man,
...and he walked faithfully with God"
Genesis 6

uh, no to both IMO

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Listen my children,
Walk in simplicity of heart, for it brings all that is pleasing to the Lord.
The simple do not covet gold, defraud their neighbor, long after many dainties,
delight in varied apparel, nor desire long life for himself.
Instead, he waits for the will of God, ("Sin always has a relationship to God and His will" - as on other thread)
and the spirits of error have no power against him.
He does not allow his mind to be corrupted by lust, envy, jealousy, or greed.
He walks in righteousness...not focusing on...the errors of the world."
- testament of Issachar

"Do not corrupt yourself by excess or deceive yourself with empty words.
If your mouth is silent but your heart is pure, you will be able to follow the will of God,
and resist the will of the devil."
- testament of Naphtali

"Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me."
David Psalm 51

"To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
Eph 4

"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,"
Rom 6

"And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them.
I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,"
Ezekiel 11

"...I worship the God of our ancestors as a
follower of the Way, which they (other Jewish factions) call a sect (or a heresy/cult)"
the apostle Paul Acts 24:14
the Zadok way in the Dead Sea Scrolls, ie. "the way of the ancestors"

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Blessed is the man who dies in (imputed) righteousness and goodness,
concerning whom there is no book of unrighteousness written (or remembered), *
and against whom no day of judgement will be found."
...holy ones (angels, Enoch walked with elohim))...said to me,
"Declare everything to thy son Methuselah, and show all your children (that includes YOU!)
that no flesh is righteous before the Lord."
- book of Enoch ch 81 >

"and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the (spiritually) dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Rev 20

> As it is written:
There is none righteous, no, not one;"
Romans 3:10


"And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be..."
Jesus, Luke 17

"These are the words of Enoch, to those who will be living near the day of Tribulation,
when all the godless and wicked will be destroyed.
God opened the eyes of righteous Enoch..."
- book of Enoch ch1 v. 1-2a

"A copy of the book of the words of Noah..." etc.
- testament of Noah

wonder if the Messiah may want us to know what Our ancestors told us
about Sin, salvation and redemption, the (triune) nature of the Godhead, prophecies about events of the Future...

"That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 1:9

heed the teachings/past down wisdom of Your ancestors yo

American Gothic

Well-known member
"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away." Acts 13

"a story is told about a Menahem of the Essenes' sect. According to Josephus, when Menahem saw young Herod the Great going to school, he clapped him on the back and addressed him as king, announcing to him that he would reign successfully, despite Herod not being in the line of the royal dynasty. When Herod became king, he asked Menahem how long his reign would be. Initially, Menahem didn't reply, and Herod urged him "Would my reign last ten years?". Menahem replied that Herod would reign at least 30 years, but did not specify the exact number. Herod was pleased with Menahem's answer and dismissed him with a clasp of the hand and thenceforth bestowed special honors upon the Essenes."
- Wikipedia

some Essenes were prophets
some early Church leaders were prophets
Manahem was apparently all the above

American Gothic

Well-known member
"MISHNA: Yosei ben Yo’ezer says not to place one’s hands on offerings before slaughtering them on a Festival because this is considered performing labor with an animal on a Festival. His colleague, Yosef ben Yohanan, says to place them; Yehoshua ben Peraḥya says not to place them; Nitai HaArbeli says to place them; Yehuda ben Tabbai says not to place them; Shimon ben Shatah says to place them; Shemaya says to place them; Avtalyon says not to place them. Hillel and Menaḥem did not disagree with regard to this issue.
Menaḥem departed from his post, and Shammai entered in his stead.
Shammai says not to place them; Hillel says to place them."
Chagigah 16a Babylonian Talmud

reference that before Shammai and Hillel, there was Menahem and Hillel

"to where did Manahem depart? Abaye said, He departed and went astray (he became a heretic, ie. he had a change of mind/lifestyle)
therefore the Mishna did not wish to delve into the details of his case.
Rava said, He departed for the king's service. He received a post from the king...
(Herod remembered the claim from Manahem earlier - which came to pass)
This is also taught in a baraita: Manahem departed for the king's service, and eighty pairs of students
dressed in silk robes left with him, ....and they no longer studied Torah." Chagiga 16b (they left certain Traditions/Oral Torah ?)

I've wondered if the Qumran Essene leaders were originally Sadducee or Pharisee - not sure specifically, maybe some of both (?)
there is talk in the scrolls about their own Repentance on some doctrinal issues

Herod reigned over 30 years
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American Gothic

Well-known member
interesting the rabbinic argument about putting hands on sacrifices
the laying of hands on those set apart for service Acts 13
Paul's talk about presenting yourself as a "living sacrifice" for service Romans 12

Manahem's students in silk (sic) robes - possibly white (?) and I'd assume expensive
(upper class Jewish males - Levites?, maybe Zadoks ??? don't really know)

" all the priests and Levites that accompanied the ark were clothed in white linen. The outer garments corresponded with the cleanness, the holiness, and the joy. So the white-robed multitude are represented as singing with palms in their hands, indicating the holiness and the joy,"
F. Whitfield on 1 Chronicles 15

Jesus' tunic that was too valuable to divide into pieces John 19, Psalm 22:19
(I assume a gift to Him, and since His baptism He is now in a priestly role - and who will be a Sacrifice)

"People in various parts of the world began weaving linen at least several thousand years ago. It was also recovered from Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea..."

the early patriarch testaments seem to talk about Messiah coming from Judah,...and related to Levi
"do not rebel against Levi and Judah..."
"Elizabeth (Mary's relative) was the mother of John the Baptist and the wife of Zechariah..." - Wikipedia

Zechariah and John involved with the School of prophets
Annas and Caiaphas eventually taking over that tradition/enterprise for themselves
Essene hostility toward them and John's dealing with Herod Antipas, son of Herod the Great
group of prophets (now believers in Jesus) being at early Church center Antioch
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American Gothic

Well-known member
"The ark rested on the mountains of Ararat...
...the eternal fire...I atoned for the whole Earth.
First, I offered a male goat...afterward, I burned the fat upon the fire.
Second, I offered (an) offering of ox, ram, and sheep.
Then I poured all their blood on the base of the altar.
Third, I offered the young turtledoves with them upon the altar.
Then I offered fine wheat flour, mixed together with oil containing
incense, for the meal offerings.
I said a blessing, put- salt on all of them, and the scent of my
offering rose up to the heavens."

(four years later)
" four years it produced great amounts of wine for me.
I brought out all the wine when the first feast came.
On the first day of the feast, in the first month... the midst of my vineyard, I opened (the) vessel,
and began to drink from it on the first day of the fifth
year of the vineyard.
On that day I, and my sons and grandsons, with all our
wives and daughters, gathered together at the altar.
I blessed the Lord of Heaven, the Most High God, the
great Holy One, who saved us from destruction..."

- testament of Noah (king/priest/prophet/wine bibber)
Dead Sea Scroll 1Q20 col. 10 & 12
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