the original Messianic Judaism?

American Gothic

Well-known member
Well, Messianics observe the Sabbath, would never say the Law is done away with, would never call all foods clean, etc.
just as there exists different theological strands within "Christianity" and the possibility they might diminish the Jewish context of the scriptures
some Jewish believers might overemphasize Mosaic covenant or hang on to Pharisaic leanings within "Messianism"
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
oh there are outlook and cultural and activity differences alright

but at it's base I see two kinds of people in the Bible - nonbelievers and Believers
Yes, that's true but where Arnold is concerned, I think people expect him to be a Messianic teacher and I don't think he really is.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Yes, that's true but where Arnold is concerned, I think people expect him to be a Messianic teacher and I don't think he really is.
because He doesn't teach people to observe the Mosaic law? or that those in Jesus are under a New law?

"The Law of Messiah is far more difficult to systematize in that it deals not only with actions and behavior, but with the intent of the heart and attitudes. Consider the Law of Messiah to be every propositional directive contained within the New Testament. In other words, the Law of Messiah is quite simply defined as divinely revealed apostolic teaching. That is the only source you need. There is a great deal of overlap between the Laws of Moses and Messiah, but they diverge in many places. We would expect such a large amount of overlap, particularly in those areas that reflect the righteous conduct required by a righteous God of His people.

No one (sh)ould accuse us of being anti-law. I think that you will find the Law of Messiah is far more morally stringent and challenging than is the Law of Moses."
- Ariel Q&A "...(trying) to find a developed and systematic version for the Law of Messiah(Law of Christ),.."

"the Law of Moses has become inoperative" (I don't see that as saying it no longer has any use or value)
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
because He doesn't teach people to observe the Mosaic law? or that those in Jesus are under a New law?

"The Law of Messiah is far more difficult to systematize in that it deals not only with actions and behavior, but with the intent of the heart and attitudes. Consider the Law of Messiah to be every propositional directive contained within the New Testament. In other words, the Law of Messiah is quite simply defined as divinely revealed apostolic teaching. That is the only source you need. There is a great deal of overlap between the Laws of Moses and Messiah, but they diverge in many places. We would expect such a large amount of overlap, particularly in those areas that reflect the righteous conduct required by a righteous God of His people.

No one (sh)ould accuse us of being anti-law. I think that you will find the Law of Messiah is far more morally stringent and challenging than is the Law of Moses."
- Ariel Q&A "...(trying) to find a developed and systematic version for the Law of Messiah(Law of Christ),.."

"the Law of Moses has become inoperative" (I don't see that as saying it no longer has any use or value)
Well...if I'm not mistaken, I heard him say that eating "clean" is not necessary, which I disagree with. I don't believe God gave these rules arbitrarily. He sounds very mainstream to me. Like he wants to make Jews abandon Jesus for Paul. I just don't like his teaching.
Jesus never told anyone to toss the Law out like a dirty rag. Fruchtenbaum teaches Paul. Jesus hardly figures in.
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Well...if I'm not mistaken, I heard him say that eating "clean" is not necessary, which I disagree with. I don't believe God gave these rules arbitrarily. He sounds very mainstream to me. Like he wants to make Jews abandon Jesus for Paul. I just don't like his teaching.
Jesus never told anyone to toss the Law out like a dirty rag. Fruchtenbaum teaches Paul. Jesus hardly figures in.
what is "eating clean"? does Kosher mean "not dirty"?
what was the purpose of the allowed and not allowed (for Israel) foods?
what would be the purpose today (since the Messiah already died)?
 
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Rachel Redux

Active member
what is "eating clean"? does Kosher mean "not dirty"?
what was the purpose of the allowed and not
allowed (for Israel) foods?
what would be the purpose today (since the Messiah already died)?
Eating Biblically clean means not eating things God said not to eat. (I think you knew that.) It has nothing to do with ritual added by Pharisees or Rabbis. Kosher has to do with pots, pans, dishes, utensils, etc and not even being able to eat a cheeseburger. (I think you knew that, too.)

The purpose of food laws was to set God's obedient apart from the rest of the world. I don't know about you but I believe I'm supposed to be set apart too, and grafted in to the root, Yeshua.
Also, there's a perfectly good health reason to eat Biblically clean.
 
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Sorry, but I reject not only Paul, but your entire New Testament. Not only does is quote the Tanakh out of context, mistranslate, misquote, and refer to prophecies that don't even exist, but its essential message of salvation through belief contradicts the essential message of obedience in the Tanakh. It also presents Jesus as the messiah, when we in fact know that Jesus cannot possibly be the messiah since he did not fulfill the prophecies. IOW, if you believe in the Tanakh, you cannot also believe in the New Testament.

One is mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. (i.e. Matthew 22:29) (i.e. Open Heart says - " ...when we in fact know that Jesus cannot possibly be the messiah since he did not fulfill the prophecies")

When, in fact, I know that Jesus is Messiah (Matthew 16:16), and that Jesus is a True Prophet fulfilling Messianic prophecies - including, but not limited to - Messiah's Resurrection prophecies. (i.e. Reference: Key of David illustrations)

(Key of David illustrations - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-vRZXXbDELqfrMOM1aGgVH9icPmPgpIx/view)


2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Footnote: [a] training, discipline


In Christ's service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world
 

American Gothic

Well-known member
Eating Biblically clean means not eating things God said not to eat. It has nothing to do with ritual added by Pharisees or Rabbis. Kosher has to do with pots, pans, dishes, utensils, etc and not even being able to eat a cheeseburger.
"Foods that may be consumed according to halakha (Jewish law) are termed kosher (/ˈkoʊʃər/) in English, from the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew term kashér (כָּשֵׁר‎), meaning "fit" (in this context, fit for consumption)." - Wikipedia

I view this ("kosher") just as meaning "acceptable" or "not acceptable"
and yeah, a lot of ritual was over time added around that

The purpose of food laws was to set God's obedient apart from the rest of the world.
It set Israelites apart from the gentles, as did the whole Law in general
IMV to keep gentiles apart from the promises of blessings...for a time
(they would eventually get blessed by being brought near, thru Messiah, but separation was ended in some significant way)

I don't know about you but I believe I'm supposed to be set apart too, and grafted in to the root, Yeshua.
I think you are grafted in
would you go into a not set apart in your way person's house and eat with them?

Also, there's a perfectly good health reason to
there might be some
and if someone wants to use the Mosaic law as a guide on things, they are free to do so

eat Biblically clean.
there is some stuff in the Scrolls about the Law allowed and not allowed foods, and their representative typology
 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
Key of David illustrations
In my view, the 14th of Nisan always falls on the 3rd day of the week (this differs from todays Judaism)
the 15th is the 4th day of the week (this day Messiah died- first day of week of unleavened bread Matthew 26)
then 5th, 6th, and 7th
and He was found risen on the 1st day of the new week

the second 1st or "8th day" in some ways represents a new beginning
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
One is mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. (i.e. Matthew 22:29) (i.e. Open Heart says - " ...when we in fact know that Jesus cannot possibly be the messiah since he did not fulfill the prophecies")

When, in fact, I know that Jesus is Messiah (Matthew 16:16), and that Jesus is a True Prophet fulfilling Messianic prophecies - including, but not limited to - Messiah's Resurrection prophecies. (i.e. Reference: Key of David illustrations)
There is no prophecy of the Messiah resurrecting (unless you mean the general resurrection of all the dead).
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
"Foods that may be consumed according to halakha (Jewish law) are termed kosher (/ˈkoʊʃər/) in English, from the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew term kashér (כָּשֵׁר‎), meaning "fit" (in this context, fit for consumption)." - Wikipedia

I view this ("kosher") just as meaning "acceptable" or "not acceptable"
and yeah, a lot of ritual was over time added around that

It set Israelites apart from the gentles, as did the whole Law in general
IMV to keep gentiles apart from the promises of blessings...for a time
(they would eventually get blessed by being brought near, thru Messiah, but separation was ended in some significant way)

I think you are grafted in
would you go into a not set apart in your way person's house and eat with them?


there might be some
and if someone wants to use the Mosaic law as a guide on things, they are free to do so

there is some stuff in the Scrolls about the Law allowed and not allowed foods, and their representative typology
Of course...I do it all the time. But I still don't eat pork, shellfish, etc. My family and friends know I don't eat these things. If they don't have food I can eat, I just eat vegetables.
 
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