the original Messianic Judaism?

A

American Gothic

Well-known member
"the instructor will teach all of the sons of light about human nature..."

Mankind has two natures in which he can walk until the time of his visitation.
These are the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.
From the source of light come the generations of truth, and from the source
of darkness come the generations of deceit.

The prince of lights has dominion over the sons of justice because
they walk in the way of light. The angel of darkness has dominion over
the sons of deceit since they walk in the ways of darkness.
(Pharisees are called sons of darkness in the Dead Sea Scrolls)

God created all the spirits of light and the spirits of darkness.
He uses their works, paths, and plans.
God will love the spirits of light throughout all the Ages." (Believers are righteous in God's sight)
Qumran Essenes "Community Rule" Dead Sea Scroll 1QS

"(believing the Gospel) by this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error"
1 John 4
 
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"the Way of light'

"..I worship the God of our Ancestors as a
follower of the Way, which they (other Jewish factions) call a sect (or a heresy/cult)"
Acts 24:14

"I am...the Light of the World
whoever follows Me shall not walk in darkness
but will have the light of Life"
John 8
 
the Way was called "the Zadok way", or "the way of the Ancestors"
Zadok meaning just/righteous and the ancestors I think going
back beyond Abraham and Moses all the way to Adam, the first Melchizedek
the way of faith, as the Just (righteous in God's sight) live by Faith Habakkuk 2

"if you obey the voice of the LORD"
"...but if your heart turns away so that you do not hear"
"therefore, choose life, that you may live"
"obey His voice... for He is your Life" Deuteronomy 30

"my sheep hear my voice" John 10
"I am the way the truth and the life" John 14
 
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"The Way of Light in this world is to enlighten the minds of
men by making straight the paths of true righteousness...

meekness
patience
gentleness
eternal goodness
intelligence
understanding
potent wisdom
knowledge
enthusiasm (for righteousness)
Holy purpose
kindness
magnificent purity
temperance
self-control

these are the foundation for the sons of Truth in the world
(there is) reward for all who walk in these..."

-

Christian liberty/Love fulfills the Law/walking in the Spirit (NKJV)

"Stand therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free
and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
I say to you that if you (do, then) Christ will profit you nothing.

You brethren have been called to liberty...
I...say then, walk in the Spirit
if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the (Mosaic) law

Now the works of the flesh are evident...
but the fruit of the Spirit is
love, joy, peace, longsuffering/patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control
against such there is no law.

If we live in the Spirit, let us walk in the Spirit"
- Galatians 5


-
 
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"The Way of Light is to enlighten the minds of all the men
by making straight the path of true righteousness...
and teaching their hearts to reverence the commands of God."

-

Are those in Jesus lawless then?
"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another - just as I have loved you." John 13
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves
has been born of God and knows God...because God is love." 1 John 4
"This is love for God, to obey His commands. And His commands are not burdensome." 1 John 5
"Carry each others burdens. and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6
 
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"You have divide your name for his inheritance, so that he may establish
Your name there. She (the Holy City) is the glory of your earthly kingdom.
You will eternally watch over her, and Your glory will manifest there.
She will be an eternal passion throughout all generations to his seed.
By you righteous judgement, you will purify him to be an eternal light.
You have made him a firstborn son to You. He will be a prince and ruler
of your earthly kingdom. You have placed the crown of the heavens and
the glory of the clouds upon him. You have placed the angel of your
peace in the congregation and given him the laws of righteousness
as a father does for his son. He loves You and your spirit.
Through them you establish your glory."
- testament of Enos Dead Sea Scroll 4Q369

"On that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious." Isaiah 11:10
"a light of revelation for the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel" Luke 2:32
"but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory" 1 Corinthians 2:7
"For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it." 2 Corinthians 3:9-10
 
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"true holiness is for every member to love his brother as himself
and support the poor, needy, and Noahide.
They must seek the peace of his brother."

"God did not choose the- scoffers from the beginning of the
world, because He knew what they would choose before they
were created. He knew what they would do before they were
created...
He knows everything before it happens in each of the respective
periods during all the years of each Age."

The remnant know the truth, because they follow the seers
who are anointed by the Holy Spirit.
He calls them by name, but whoever rejects Him goes astray."
- Damascus Document 4Q266-272
 
American Gothic said:
"the instructor will teach all of the sons of light about human nature..."

Mankind has two natures in which he can walk until the time of his visitation.
These are the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.
From the source of light come the generations of truth, and from the source
of darkness come the generations of deceit.

The prince of lights has dominion over the sons of justice because
they walk in the way of light. The angel of darkness has dominion over
the sons of deceit since they walk in the ways of darkness.
(Pharisees are called sons of darkness in the Dead Sea Scrolls)

God created all the spirits of light and the spirits of darkness.
He uses their works, paths, and plans.
God will love the spirits of light throughout all the Ages." (Believers are righteous in God's sight)
Qumran Essenes "Community Rule" Dead Sea Scroll 1QS

"(believing the Gospel) by this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error"
1 John 4
Click to expand...
I read the Dead Sea Scrolls a lot. I suspect that the Teacher of Righteousness was a Messianic figure, although not in the sense of a literal human conquering king on earth, i.e., a Caesar or a General Patton. His kingdom was something greater than dirt in Palestine. It was greater than something the senses could detect. Although the form of his religion was second Temple Judaism its inward meaning was common to the mystery teachings of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Chaldeans. In fact, he allegorized the Law like Philo and Paul would do later.

So I am curious, how do you perceive the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
 
docphin5 said:
I read the Dead Sea Scrolls a lot. I suspect that the Teacher of Righteousness was a Messianic figure, although not in the sense of a literal human conquering king on earth, i.e., a Caesar or a General Patton. His kingdom was something greater than dirt in Palestine. It was greater than something the senses could detect. Although the form of his religion was second Temple Judaism its inward meaning was common to the mystery teachings of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Chaldeans. In fact, he allegorized the Law like Philo and Paul would do later.

So I am curious, how do you perceive the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Click to expand...
I think Jesus taught at Qumran, and is the Teacher of Righteousness
but I accept that the tile might have been applied to other leaders or teachers there before
"the instructor" in that passage might be a reference to certain teaching position(s) in the community
but the "prince of lights" reference seems Messianic/Divine in contrast to the "angel of darkness" (Satan)

I view the Community founders/leadership as being persons of the Zadok priestly line, who were deposed in Jerusalem
and who lead by the Holy Spirit eventually went to the Eastern desert areas to prepare the way of the Messiah
culminating in John the Baptist, of the Zadok line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Priests_of_Israel

"Essenes" being those of the Jewish population who continued to follow their "Way" in contrast to Sadducees and Pharisees
the Theology of the scrolls matches NT/Christian Theology - so it existed before and was Jewish
and the NT seems to have some direct references to the Scrolls
 
docphin5 said:
a literal (Messianic) human conquering king on earth
Click to expand...
you don't think God promised a literal earthly Messianic kingdom to Israel, and will fulfill that?

allegorized the Law
Click to expand...
How did Paul allegorize the Law? He seemed pretty adamant that if one was to truly take that on, they would have to take it All...
"I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised (under the Law), Christ will profit you nothing." Galatians 5
 
Jewjitzu said:
There's something beautiful about the simplicity of lighting candles. No commercialism, no made-up myths of someone riding a sled, etc.

Just a commemoration of an actual historical event.
Click to expand...
who started Hanukkah? (I do know What it is about)
was it a God commanded observance for Israel?
 
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American Gothic said:
you don't think God promised a literal earthly Messianic kingdom to Israel, and will fulfill that?
Click to expand...
It is complicated. There is a lot in that question that cannot be answered with a yes or no.

American Gothic said:
How did Paul allegorize the Law? He seemed pretty adamant that if one was to truly take that on, they would have to take it All...
"I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised (under the Law), Christ will profit you nothing." Galatians 5
Click to expand...
He was right. Circumcision of the flesh has no efficacy for salvation. It was always the inner circumcision that counted most, the circumcision of the heart from fleshy impulses. Atonement is solely by the presence of the inner Spirit as the Dead Sea Scrolls stated over and over.

IMO, the circumcision on the eighth day is a type for the bodily resurrection of the celestial Messiah. IOW, if the heart is not circumcised of fleshy impulses on the eighth day (after the Hebdomad of Days of Creation when heavenly host are gathered in) then the soul is cutoff from the God Most High. Souls that are still serving bodily passions or irrational ideas when God recalls the cosmos then their soul suffers the same fate as the material cosmos.

That is just a minor point and example of allegorizing the Law, so I am not willing to fall on my sword over it or even to debate it for there are much more important things to discover in scripture, especially in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, Nag hammadi, and Trismegistic literature.
 
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American Gothic said:
I think Jesus taught at Qumran, and is the Teacher of Righteousness
but I accept that the tile might have been applied to other leaders or teachers there before
"the instructor" in that passage might be a reference to certain teaching position(s) in the community
but the "prince of lights" reference seems Messianic/Divine in contrast to the "angel of darkness" (Satan)

I view the Community founders/leadership as being persons of the Zadok priestly line, who were deposed in Jerusalem
and who lead by the Holy Spirit eventually went to the Eastern desert areas to prepare the way of the Messiah
culminating in John the Baptist, of the Zadok line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Priests_of_Israel

"Essenes" being those of the Jewish population who continued to follow their "Way" in contrast to Sadducees and Pharisees
the Theology of the scrolls matches NT/Christian Theology - so it existed before and was Jewish
and the NT seems to have some direct references to the Scrolls
Click to expand...
Interesting. There are some overlapping perspectives between us.

You can see my point of view (as an OP) in the Archaeology section here: Origins of Christianity
 
docphin5 said:
I read the Dead Sea Scrolls a lot. I suspect that the Teacher of Righteousness was a Messianic figure, although not in the sense of a literal human conquering king on earth, i.e., a Caesar or a General Patton. His kingdom was something greater than dirt in Palestine. It was greater than something the senses could detect. Although the form of his religion was second Temple Judaism its inward meaning was common to the mystery teachings of the Egyptians, Greeks, and Chaldeans. In fact, he allegorized the Law like Philo and Paul would do later.

So I am curious, how do you perceive the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Click to expand...
Dr. Robert Eisenmen of CSU Long Beach is one of the world's foremost experts in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is his theory that the Teacher of Righteousness was James the brother of Jesus, and taht Paul was the Wicked Priest. He talks a lot about the bitter competition between the James school of believers and the Paul school of believers. You can read about his ideas in his book, "James, the brother of Jesus."
 
docphin5 said:
Atonement is solely by the presence of the inner Spirit
Click to expand...
I'd say Atonement is only a covering of sin - something aspects of the Mosaic law provided to those in that relationship Israel had with God
Propitiation being what is had now in Jesus - Sin/sins not being held against us anymore, allowing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
I agree concepts like these are in the Scrolls

IMO, the circumcision on the eighth day is a type for the bodily resurrection of the celestial Messiah.
Click to expand...
I've never considered much typology of bodily circumcision, (other than relative to the Heart) but the idea makes sense
because Israel's rituals were symbolic and prophetic in nature
I agree what made Israel's circumcision unique was that it was on the eighth day

You can see my point of view (as an OP) in the Archaeology section here
Click to expand...
thanks, I'll check it out
 
Open Heart said:
Dr. Robert Eisenmen of CSU Long Beach is one of the world's foremost experts in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is his theory that the Teacher of Righteousness was James the brother of Jesus, and taht Paul was the Wicked Priest. He talks a lot about the bitter competition between the James school of believers and the Paul school of believers. You can read about his ideas in his book, "James, the brother of Jesus."
Click to expand...
I think Jesus' family connections is an interesting subject
If any had connection to Qumran, they would have known the Scrolls, or at least the Teaching that was going on there
same with any Disciples
His cousin John among those to run a school of prophets (or a place to study the prophecies)

I don't see how Paul would be viewed as priestly being a Benjamite
but I get the issues of his past before conversion
also, he was on his way "to Damascus", and a (covenant of) Damascus concept is a part of the Qumran thing
I'll check that too

since it is Hanukkah time
if it started in Hasmonean times, and there was controversy about the Priesthood then and following.
I've been wondering if Essenes observed it, or any opinion on it from them in the Scrolls
NT wise, I quess Jesus did observe (would it have been optional if it wasn't a Mosaic law feast IDK?)
 
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Open Heart said:
Dr. Robert Eisenmen of CSU Long Beach is one of the world's foremost experts in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is his theory that the Teacher of Righteousness was James the brother of Jesus, and taht Paul was the Wicked Priest. He talks a lot about the bitter competition between the James school of believers and the Paul school of believers. You can read about his ideas in his book, "James, the brother of Jesus."
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure Wise has narrowed it down to John Hyrcanus II (or his brother) due to the history of that time. Paul came later. Although, there is no question that Paul was hated by the Pharisees and I am pretty sure disowned by Peter, James, and John in Jerusalem from the Party of Christ who come from "The Way" founded by the TOR. But after the Temple was destroyed I think the Jewish-Christians recognized Paul as the "true prophet."
 
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