The Pre- Existence of the Son is Irrefutable !

civic

Well-known member
1 Peter 1:10-11
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

Above we read that the Spirit of Christ was in the O.T. Prophets who spoke of the coming grace and sufferings of the Messiah in which they wrote about long ago.

Now this will be interesting to see how the unitarians twist this passage to deny the pre-existence of Christ/Messiah in the OT since Peter under inspiration declares that it was the Spirit of Christ WHO was in those OT prophets of God.

And not only does this passage declare His pre-existence but also His Deity. Christ is God because of His inspiring the OT Prophets with the knowledge of future things, which No One except God can do.

hope this helps !!!
 
1 Peter 1:10-11
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

Above we read that the Spirit of Christ was in the O.T. Prophets who spoke of the coming grace and sufferings of the Messiah in which they wrote about long ago.

Now this will be interesting to see how the unitarians twist this passage to deny the pre-existence of Christ/Messiah in the OT since Peter under inspiration declares that it was the Spirit of Christ WHO was in those OT prophets of God.

And not only does this passage declare His pre-existence but also His Deity. Christ is God because of His inspiring the OT Prophets with the knowledge of future things, which No One except God can do.

hope this helps !!!
The Spirit of Christ only refers to the Holy Spirit of God which was the anointing upon and within Jesus and through which Jesus was made and impowered to become the human Messiah who would shed his blood and die for the sins of all men, and it isn't referring to his own spirit belonging to his own ontology.

Let me ask you a question Civic, when God is called the God of Abraham, does it mean God is also belonging to Abraham's actual ontology, the way you are taking the words "The Spirit of Christ" to be referring to the spirit of Jesus in regards to his own ontology?



By the way, how many Spirits are there within your version of God and who you claim to be three persons,any how Civic, does each person have their own Spirit?

For you already have the Holy Spirit who in your version of God is another Spirit separate from the other three persons and such is the obvious folly and error in your doctrines.

Let me ask you another question, by what means is Jesus dwelling within the believers, for Jesus told us in John 16:13-15 that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believers on his behalf?

So if Jesus meant that he would literally come and dwell within the believer personally, why would he have to sent the Holy Spirit to speak to the believer on his behalf?




John 16:13-15 New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he (the Holy Spirit) will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”​


Wow, I will just bet your head is really swimming now and trying to figure out with your usual human reasoning and logic, just how this can possibly fit with your false doctrines, huh Civic?
 
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civic

Well-known member
No it specifically says the spirit of Christ in relation to the Messiah in the passage.

Stick with the context and stop running to and fro here a little there a little.

CONTEXT is KING.
 
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No it specifically says the spirit of Christ in relation to the Messiah in the passage.

Stick with the context and spot running to and fro here a little there a little.

CONTEXT is KING.
It also specifically calls God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob also, and using your human logic and reasoning on this therefore, that would also make God a part of Abraham's substance and nature and ontology likewise and that is what proves you to be wrong about this also.

The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of the prophets as well, so does that mean that the Holy Spirit is belonging to their substance and ontology as well Civic?

By the way, how many Spirits are there within your version of God and who you claim to be three person any how Civic, does each person have their own Spirit?

For you already have the Holy Spirit who in your version of God is another Spirit separate from the other three persons and such is the obvious folly and error in your doctrines.

Let me ask you another question, by what means is Jesus dwelling within the believers, for Jesus told us in John 16:13-15 that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believers on his behalf?

So if Jesus meant that he would literally come and dwell within the believer personally, why would he have to sent the Holy Spirit to speak to the believer on his behalf?




John 16:13-15 New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he (the Holy Spirit) will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”​

Wow, I will just bet your head is really swimming now and trying to figure out with your usual human reasoning and logic, just how this can possibly fit with your false doctrines, huh Civic?

Now how about you answering my questions being you came over here to debate on your false doctrine of the Trinity and Jesus as being God Civic, for the burden of proof lies upon you and that means you have to answer the questions that I have brought up that contradicts your ideas on this?
 

civic

Well-known member
I see you are incapable of exegeting 1 Peter 1:11.

have a nice day and come back when you can show the capability of sticking with the passage in the OP.

hope this helps !!!
 
I see you are incapable of exegeting 1 Peter 1:11.

have a nice day and come back when you can show the capability of sticking with the passage in the OP.

hope this helps !!!
I see that you are incapable of refuting the truth from the Scriptures that I gave you Civic.

However, if you are going come over here from wherever else you were on this forum to discuss the trinity, then it is up to you to answer to the questions that others ask of you, instead of running away at the first attempt by someone to prove you wrong like you are doing.
 

civic

Well-known member
I see that you are incapable of refuting the truth from the Scriptures that I gave you Civic.

However, if you are going come over here from wherever else you were on this forum to discuss the trinity, then it is up to you to answer to the questions that others ask of you, instead of running away at the first attempt by someone to prove you wrong like you are doing.
exegete the OP and I will respond otherwise I have no interest in your rabbit holes.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
"the Spirit of Christ" that's a clear Trinitarian reference. Jesus Christ is God Almighty, Jehovah.

Amen.
 
exegete the OP and I will respond otherwise I have no interest in your rabbit holes.
For starters, where does it tell us in the scriptures that we are suppose to as you called it "exegete" the passage Civic.

My Bible in John 1:18 tells me that Jesus is suppose to "exegete" the truth of who God is for us instead!
 
"the Spirit of Christ" that's a clear Trinitarian reference. Jesus Christ is God Almighty, Jehovah.

Amen.
How many Spirits does your God actually have then Sir?

Also when the Bible calls God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, does that mean also that God is included as part of their nature and being the way you are taking the words "Spirit of Christ" to mean for Jesus?

For you already have the Holy Spirit who in your version of God is another Spirit separate from the other two persons and such is the obvious folly and error in your doctrines.


Let me ask you another question, by what means is Jesus dwelling within the believers, for Jesus told us in John 16:13-15 that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believers on his behalf?

So if Jesus meant that he would literally come and dwell within the believer personally, why would he have to send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believer on his behalf then?




John 16:13-15 New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he (the Holy Spirit) will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

 
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Septextura

Well-known member
How many Spirits does your God actually have then Sir?

Also when the Bible calls God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, does that mean also that God is included as part of their nature and being the way you are taking the words "Spirit of Christ" to mean for Jesus?

For you already have the Holy Spirit who in your version of God is another Spirit separate from the other two persons and such is the obvious folly and error in your doctrines.


Let me ask you another question, by what means is Jesus dwelling within the believers, for Jesus told us in John 16:13-15 that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believers on his behalf?

So if Jesus meant that he would literally come and dwell within the believer personally, why would he have to send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believer on his behalf then?




John 16:13-15 New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he (the Holy Spirit) will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”


Is the Menorah one or 7 objects?
 

jamesh

Active member
It also specifically calls God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob also, and using your human logic and reasoning on this therefore, that would also make God a part of Abraham's substance and nature and ontology likewise and that is what proves you to be wrong about this also.

The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of the prophets as well, so does that mean that the Holy Spirit is belonging to their substance and ontology as well Civic?

By the way, how many Spirits are there within your version of God and who you claim to be three person any how Civic, does each person have their own Spirit?

For you already have the Holy Spirit who in your version of God is another Spirit separate from the other three persons and such is the obvious folly and error in your doctrines.

Let me ask you another question, by what means is Jesus dwelling within the believers, for Jesus told us in John 16:13-15 that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believers on his behalf?

So if Jesus meant that he would literally come and dwell within the believer personally, why would he have to sent the Holy Spirit to speak to the believer on his behalf?




John 16:13-15 New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he (the Holy Spirit) will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”​

Wow, I will just bet your head is really swimming now and trying to figure out with your usual human reasoning and logic, just how this can possibly fit with your false doctrines, huh Civic?

Now how about you answering my questions being you came over here to debate on your false doctrine of the Trinity and Jesus as being God Civic, for the burden of proof lies upon you and that means you have to answer the questions that I have brought up that contradicts your ideas on this?

What a "dodge" coming from you by changing the subject. There are about a dozen times where God declares, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6 is one of them.), so what does that have to do with anything?

Moreover, human logic and spiritual logic, i.e. the Holy Spirit dictates this as a fact. Even Stephen brought this up at Acts 7:32, "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob." And Moses shook with fear and would not venture to look." How does any of this translate into (as you said), "make God a part of Abraham's substance and nature and ontology likewise and that is what proves you to be wrong about this also." Abraham et al was created by God and were (as we are made in God's image). This does not mean God is a part of Abraham's substance. You have this "butt" backwards.

Now, Civic has a valid point and to back up his point I will give you 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, and only quote vs4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock WHICH FOLLOWED THEM; AND THE ROCK WAS CHRIST."

The Apostle Paul called the water "spiritual."
He did not say the rock from which it issued was spiritual and not material, but there was a "spiritual Rock" following them; their spirits drank while their bodies drank. "That (other) Rock was Christ." This verse indicates that Christ existed in Old Testament times and was spiritually present with Old Testament Israel.

You know, how do you live with yourself by constantly (every post and thread) searching the Scriptures by actually looking for ways of what they don't say and teach from what they do say and teach? I know, you use to be a Trinitarian for 30 some years, so how does that mean you know what your talking about, because the reality is you don't.

In Him
herman
 
What a "dodge" coming from you by changing the subject. There are about a dozen times wh

ere God declares, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6 is one of them.), so what does that have to do with anything? Moreover, human logic and spiritual logic, i.e. the Holy Spirit dictates this as a fact. Even Stephen brought this up at Acts 7:32, "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob." And Moses shook with fear and would not venture to look." How does any of this translate into (as you said), "make God a part of Abraham's substance and nature and ontology likewise and that is what proves you to be wrong about this also." Abraham et al was created by God and were (as we are made in God's image). This does not mean God is a part of Abraham's substance. You have this "butt" backwards.



You can't figure that out huh?

It reveals that words "Spirit of Christ" doesn't necessarily mean that it refers to Christ's own personal spirit in regards to his ontology or being and it isn't changing the subject at all therefore but to the contrary it is completely relevant to the subject.

So you see then, that I am not dodging anything nor am I actually changing the subject either but only showing why the words "Spirit of Christ" cannot be forced to speak of his own personal Spirit of his own being and ontology and which you want to do with it.

Furthermore, then how many Spirits would that make of your God, for you already have the Holy Spirit who is individual of the other two members of your false god and with "The Spirit of Christ" the way you are believing it to mean, that makes two and what about the Father who is also identified as a Spirit?


Three individual persons with their own Spirits makes three God's and not only one who is three persons and that is polytheism no matter how you might try to argue that it isn't dude!
Now, Civic has a valid point and to back up his point I will give you 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, and only quote vs4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock WHICH FOLLOWED THEM; AND THE ROCK WAS CHRIST."

Same exact difference dude, Paul was not speaking of Jesus personally following Israel in the desert and for starters if he would have been there, he wouldn't have been following them but rather leading them instead.


Paul was using this symbolically to reveal that those figures given unto them by Moses in the wilderness like especially the serpent on a pole that represented Christ Jesus crucified and the rock from which came the living water, etc, etc were figures representing that Jesus was yet coming.

That is what he meant by
"and that Spiritual rock that following them was Christ", for in following them, it meant that Jesus had not yet arrived but was following them through the symbolism and figures and therefore also in their history until the time appointed by God for him to be sent unto them.
The Apostle Paul called the water "spiritual." He did not say the rock from which it issued was spiritual and not material, but there was a "spiritual Rock" following them; their spirits drank while their bodies drank. "That (other) Rock was Christ." This verse indicates that Christ existed in Old Testament times and was spiritually present with Old Testament Israel.

Yes but once again, he is only referring to it as a figure and symbol of the Christ who was yet to come and therefore following behind them until the set time of the Father for him to be sent unto them.

Also, the living water that Jesus offered when he actually came was also a figure of the Holy Spirit of God and the people didn't have the Holy Spirit yet either, did they dude?

This also proves that he is speaking of Christ following them in a symbolic and figurative sense and not a literal one.

You know, how do you live with yourself by constantly (every post and thread) searching the Scriptures by actually looking for ways of what they don't say and teach from what they do say and teach? I know, you use to be a Trinitarian for 30 some years, so how does that mean you know what your talking about, because the reality is you don't.

In Him
herman
That is what trins do Sir, they search the Bible for more and more scriptures out of context to use in order to convince themselves over and over again of what God cannot convince them of because they are adulterating his word and he cannot give his rhema into ones heart for scriptures not taken in their proper context or meaning.

Civic is attempting to force the words "Spirit of Christ" to mean Jesus' literal Spirit of his own being and he cannot do this, for it cannot mean that and I even gave good reason why it can't also from John 16:13-15 and why didn't you answer to what I revealed about that passage?

For Jesus clearly tells us that the Spirit would be sent to reveal his words unto his disciples and which means that he would not be coming to literally dwell within them at all but only through his connection with the Spirit of God and through which we as believers are also connected to God, Christ and one another also.

Here read it once again yourself, for that is what Jesus clearly said.



John 16:13-15​

New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”


I was a trintarian for better than thirty years and I know all too well what you trins must do on a daily bases in order to keep convincing yourselves of your false doctrines despite seeing the many contracting statements by Jesus that refutes them.

I will tell you this however, there is a day coming very soon when God will force you to be honest with those passages of scripture that you keep trying to adjust out of their context and meaning to make them fit with your false teachings and if you refuse, what do you think God will end up doing with you Sir?

John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they might know you (Father) The Only True God and Jesus The Christ whom you have sent".


John 5:26, "For just as The Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".


John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me, shall live because of me".


Isaiah 46:9-10​

New International Version​

9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

Notice in the above passage, that God is using his knowing the end from the beginning to reveal to his people Israel that there is no other being called god who is The Only True God but only himself alone period, that is why he said what he did in this verse but let's now see what Jesus said.


Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour no man knows, not the angels, nor the Son but THE FATHER ONLY".
 

johnny guitar

Active member
How many Spirits does your God actually have then Sir?

Also when the Bible calls God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, does that mean also that God is included as part of their nature and being the way you are taking the words "Spirit of Christ" to mean for Jesus?

For you already have the Holy Spirit who in your version of God is another Spirit separate from the other two persons and such is the obvious folly and error in your doctrines.


Let me ask you another question, by what means is Jesus dwelling within the believers, for Jesus told us in John 16:13-15 that he would send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believers on his behalf?

So if Jesus meant that he would literally come and dwell within the believer personally, why would he have to send the Holy Spirit to speak to the believer on his behalf then?




John 16:13-15 New International Version​

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he (the Holy Spirit) will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

God does NOT "have" Spirits; He IS A Spirit.
 

civic

Well-known member
What a "dodge" coming from you by changing the subject. There are about a dozen times where God declares, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6 is one of them.), so what does that have to do with anything?

Moreover, human logic and spiritual logic, i.e. the Holy Spirit dictates this as a fact. Even Stephen brought this up at Acts 7:32, "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob." And Moses shook with fear and would not venture to look." How does any of this translate into (as you said), "make God a part of Abraham's substance and nature and ontology likewise and that is what proves you to be wrong about this also." Abraham et al was created by God and were (as we are made in God's image). This does not mean God is a part of Abraham's substance. You have this "butt" backwards.

Now, Civic has a valid point and to back up his point I will give you 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, and only quote vs4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock WHICH FOLLOWED THEM; AND THE ROCK WAS CHRIST."

The Apostle Paul called the water "spiritual."
He did not say the rock from which it issued was spiritual and not material, but there was a "spiritual Rock" following them; their spirits drank while their bodies drank. "That (other) Rock was Christ." This verse indicates that Christ existed in Old Testament times and was spiritually present with Old Testament Israel.

You know, how do you live with yourself by constantly (every post and thread) searching the Scriptures by actually looking for ways of what they don't say and teach from what they do say and teach? I know, you use to be a Trinitarian for 30 some years, so how does that mean you know what your talking about, because the reality is you don't.

In Him
herman
Well said !

1 Cor 10:1-4 is another excellent passage which confirms the OP.
 
Well said !

1 Cor 10:1-4 is another excellent passage which confirms the OP.
Neither of them reveal a pre existing Christ Jesus Civic, for both the Spirit of Christ mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-11 and the Rock mentioned in 1 Corinthians are referring to the Holy Spirit revealing Christ and first to the prophets as per 1 Peter 1:10-11 and then also through the symbols that were given through Moses in the wilderness.

So then do you also believe that Paul was saying that Jesus was literally the actual rock from which the water came forth and that they drank from in the wilderness or that he was also the literal manna that God sent down from heaven and that the children of Israel ate of?

Therefore, it should be very obvious to anyone who isn't in a daze from false religious indoctrination, that Paul is speaking figuratively and not literally in this passage of 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

John 16:13-15 New International Version

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.



You still haven't answered to the problem with your doctrine in the above words of Jesus either.

For if the Spirit of Christ mentioned also in the NT is speaking of Jesus literally dwelling within the believers in a personal sense and like you falsely believe, it doesn't make sense with what Jesus clearly said in this passage above.

For again, if Jesus really meant that he would dwell within his disciples literally and personally, then why would he send the Holy Spirit to speak his words unto them for him, when he would be dwelling within them personally to speak to them one on one himself?


It is quite clear therefore that the words "Spirit of Christ" refer to the Holy Spirit that is his connection to God just like it is for the believers also and is in what sense he dwells within all believers also.

Therefore it is through the Holy Spirit by which he was anointed to be who he was as the Christ and the Spirit therefor through which he is revealed and made personal to his own sheep as well, for it is the means by which he makes that connection with his sheep.

It is also obvious why you don't want to answer to this Civic, because you don't have an answer for it that will fit with your false doctrine and you know it also.

I would therefore suggest that you start getting brutally honest with these passages while you still have time Civic.



Matthew 11:12 New King James Version

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

What is needed today is a return to these words of Jesus above.

For those truly born again and led in genuine truth and by the genuine Spirit of Truth, will indeed violently seek for the truth of the Kingdom of God and get themselves free from Mystery Babylon that has over taken the mainstream churches with her apostasy of idolatry.

 

Tanachreader

Active member
1 Peter 1:10-11
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

Above we read that the Spirit of Christ was in the O.T. Prophets who spoke of the coming grace and sufferings of the Messiah in which they wrote about long ago.

Now this will be interesting to see how the unitarians twist this passage to deny the pre-existence of Christ/Messiah in the OT since Peter under inspiration declares that it was the Spirit of Christ WHO was in those OT prophets of God.

And not only does this passage declare His pre-existence but also His Deity. Christ is God because of His inspiring the OT Prophets with the knowledge of future things, which No One except God can do.

hope this helps !!!
David said the LORD is my shepherd.
Jesus said He was the good Shepherd.
John 10:11 (KJV)
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 (KJV)
I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Zech 13:7 God calls His Shepherd His fellow which I discern as meaning His kin.

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”
 
David said the LORD is my shepherd.
Jesus said He was the good Shepherd.
John 10:11 (KJV)
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 (KJV)
I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

Zech 13:7 God calls His Shepherd His fellow which I discern as meaning His kin.

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.”

First off, who is the Lord in this verse, is it the Father? If so, how would the Father being a Spirit be kin to a man dude?

This reveals that the word in this case cannot mean kin but rather an associated, and which simply means one who God has made a connection with.

Furthermore, Yahweh is indeed the Great Shepherd, but he has always shepherded his sheep through some human associate and he never had a better and more perfect associate through which to shepherd his sheep than he did in the man Jesus Christ.



To prove what I am saying, read this passage from Jeremiah 23 and you will see, that the Lord being the Shepard, always shepherds his sheep through associates (fellows) from the human race and among his people.

The Branch of Righteousness

23 “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” says the Lord. 2 Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: “You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings,” says the Lord. 3 “But I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,” says the Lord.

5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,

“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;

A King shall reign and prosper,

And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

6 In His days Judah will be saved,

And Israel will dwell safely;

Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


By the way, just in case you want to make the mistake of twisting the words spoken in verses 5-6 to be meaning that Jesus is Yahweh God, you better read this from the same Jeremiah in Jeremiah 33:15-16 where he also calls both Judah and Jerusalem by the same title of "Yahweh our Righteousness".

Jeremiah 33:15-16

New King James Version

15 ‘In those days and at that time

I will cause to grow up to David

A Branch of righteousness;

He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.

16 In those days Judah will be saved,

And Jerusalem will dwell safely.

And this is the name by which she will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.’

Therefore, just because Jesus called himself the good shepherd, doesn't prove that he was calling himself Yahweh like you falsely believe, for The Lord as the Shepherd has always shepherded his sheep through other human agencies, albeit none of them were as good a shepherd as Jesus.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

John 17:11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

So we see then, that the above words of Jesus totally destroy your false doctrine about this completely, for God is the Shepherd greater than all including Jesus and he gave Jesus the sheep to be under his care in unity with the Father who gave them to him.

Furthermore, while you trins want to argue that in John 10:30 Jesus is claiming that he is God along with the Father, you see that this doesn't work because Jesus still speaking of the same care of the sheep that he spoke of in John 10:27-30, he also speaks of in John 17:11 and 21-23.

He also prays that they might be one in their care for one another, even as he and the Father are also one in the care for them likewise.

 
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