The problem with inductive reasoning in religion

Aaron32

Active member
There are many terms common in bible-authority-based Christianity, that aren’t actually in the Bible, such as: “legalism”, or “Trinity”.

While evidence supports their theory, it still remains a theory, with nothing conclusive. In other words, the reasoning can be valid, but not necessarily true.

For example:
My car is red.
Firetrucks are Red.
Therefore, my car must be a firetruck.

The evidence you are not aware of is what makes your conclusion false. I believe that why I often see both Mormons and Christians talk past each other and contend vs be willing to make peace.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
There are many terms common in bible-authority-based Christianity, that aren’t actually in the Bible, such as: “legalism”, or “Trinity”.

Both are terms, which themselves don't appear in the Bible, but their meanings do.
I've never understood this criticism of "You can only use the words found in the Bible".

The evidence you are not aware of is what makes your conclusion false. I believe that why I often see both Mormons and Christians talk past each other and contend vs be willing to make peace.

2 Cor. 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

If you want peace, there is only one way. Run away from the cult of Mormonism and embrace Biblical Christianity.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Both are terms, which themselves don't appear in the Bible, but their meanings do.
I've never understood this criticism of "You can only use the words found in the Bible".
Because words have meaning. The meaning that we put on them is interpretation the we add in for our understanding.

My car IS red.
Fire trucks ARE red.
These are facts.
Yet, if we say my ‘car’ is a ‘Firetruck’...
It’s a valid argument - it can’t be proven wrong, but you won’t actually know until you see my car.

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed over Centuries. It’s true that there is One God, and Jesus is one with the Father, but there is no verse that specifically God is one being in three person. Yet, if we say we worship God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, that isn’t wrong, but that’s not necessarily false.
But Christians on the (Mormonism) board go one step further that you MUST accept the Trinity or you reject the WHOLE Bible. Well, that’s just wrong.



2 Cor. 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

If you want peace, there is only one way. Run away from the cult of Mormonism and embrace Biblical Christianity.
Let me clarify, I’m talking about peace, not fellowship. Gods children are peacemakers.

Jesus told his followers to leave the Pharisees alone in Matt 15:14. If they don’t accept your teachings, and you don’t accept theirs. You can both walk away. Contention is of the devil.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Because words have meaning. The meaning that we put on them is interpretation the we add in for our understanding.

I will take that as an admission on your part that Mormons do this.
But please don't project this onto Christians, because we don't do that.

The doctrine of the Trinity was developed over Centuries. It’s true that there is One God, and Jesus is one with the Father, but there is no verse that specifically God is one being in three person. Yet, if we say we worship God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, that isn’t wrong, but that’s not necessarily false.

I'm not going to get into an involved discussion about the Trinity. If you want that, then take your issues to the "Trinity" forum. You are simply demonstrating one of the most common tactics by Mormons to deflect away from Mormonism and instead try to attack Christian doctrines, such as the Trinity.

But I will say this:

1) I'm not aware of any "rule" that says a term has to be limited to represent only ONE particular verse, rather than a bunch of verses. Your little "rule" seems unreasonable.

2) Without going into too much detail, the only difference between the Trinity and the Mormon godhead is that we recognize that only one god exists, while Mormons believe that it is composed of 3 separate and multiple gods. And the Bible is clearly on the side of the Christian, since it teaches "only one god exists" in MANY passages (Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc.)

And again, there is yet ANOTHER list of passages which Mormons RUN AWAY from, proving that it is the Mormons with the false theology, not the Christians.

But Christians on the (Mormonism) board go one step further that you MUST accept the Trinity or you reject the WHOLE Bible. Well, that’s just wrong.

Sorry, but I have NEVER seen ANY Christian make that one claim.
Please link to any Christian who has made that claim.
And if you can't, I think an apology would be in order, and an effort to stop misrepresenting Christians in this way.

Let me clarify, I’m talking about peace, not fellowship. Gods children are peacemakers.

Jesus told his followers to leave the Pharisees alone in Matt 15:14. If they don’t accept your teachings, and you don’t accept theirs. You can both walk away. Contention is of the devil.

Interesting.
You want me to "walk away", but you're still here?
Why don't you take your own advice?
Or why don't you give his same "advice" to your Mormon pals?

Or, if you don't like "contention", maybe you should be less contentious?
What was that teaching of Jesus about the beam in your eye?
 

brotherofJared

Active member
There are many terms common in bible-authority-based Christianity, that aren’t actually in the Bible, such as: “legalism”, or “Trinity”.

While evidence supports their theory, it still remains a theory, with nothing conclusive. In other words, the reasoning can be valid, but not necessarily true.

For example:
My car is red.
Firetrucks are Red.
Therefore, my car must be a firetruck.

The evidence you are not aware of is what makes your conclusion false. I believe that why I often see both Mormons and Christians talk past each other and contend vs be willing to make peace.
I don't believe this site is about making peace or obtaining information or understanding. This site is about the complete obliteration of another faith's beliefs. I'm only here to defend what I believe. I believe most of it is common sense and easy to understand. It is only through the dogma of modern Christians faiths that it's adherents come to understand the Bible. It is unfortunate that we can't get them to take the scriptures as a whole and stop focusing on the dogma and only what supports that dogma.
 

Aaron32

Active member
I will take that as an admission on your part that Mormons do this.
But please don't project this onto Christians, because we don't do that.
I believe the required acceptance of the Trinity is evidence to support my claim.
If I've mis-understood, and your saying I do not need to accept the Trinity and be still be considered a Christian, then I'll admit I was wrong.


I'm not going to get into an involved discussion about the Trinity. If you want that, then take your issues to the "Trinity" forum. You are simply demonstrating one of the most common tactics by Mormons to deflect away from Mormonism and instead try to attack Christian doctrines, such as the Trinity.
Fair enough, but it's the lens of your beliefs of which are beliefs are judged.
As you stated earlier in another thread, proving me wrong doesn't make your claims true.

But I will say this:

1) I'm not aware of any "rule" that says a term has to be limited to represent only ONE particular verse, rather than a bunch of verses. Your little "rule" seems unreasonable.
I think it's simply logic. When I introduce a term that's not in the text, I'm adding meaning not directly in the text. If the Bible is complete and sufficient for understanding, then new terms should not be required.

2) Without going into too much detail, the only difference between the Trinity and the Mormon godhead is that we recognize that only one god exists, while Mormons believe that it is composed of 3 separate and multiple gods. And the Bible is clearly on the side of the Christian, since it teaches "only one god exists" in MANY passages (Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 43:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc.)
Yes, it goes into determination of the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of Jesus, along with how the term "God" is defined, and the relationship between the Father and the Son. There's a lot that goes into it, to be discussed on another thread.

And again, there is yet ANOTHER list of passages which Mormons RUN AWAY from, proving that it is the Mormons with the false theology, not the Christians.
No, it proves we don't trust our answer will be honestly evaluated and responded to because we've been burned too many times.

But Christians on the (Mormonism) board go one step further that you MUST accept the Trinity or you reject the WHOLE Bible.
Sorry, but I have NEVER seen ANY Christian make that one claim.
Please link to any Christian who has made that claim.
And if you can't, I think an apology would be in order, and an effort to stop misrepresenting Christians in this way.
Glad to oblige:
It is well-known that Mormons reject the Bible....

Interesting.
You want me to "walk away", but you're still here?
Why don't you take your own advice?
Or why don't you give his same "advice" to your Mormon pals?

Or, if you don't like "contention", maybe you should be less contentious?
What was that teaching of Jesus about the beam in your eye?
No, I want peace. I want to stop being called to defend against false claims regarding my religion.
If you want an honest, civil, discussion. I'd really like that too.

I was addressing both Mormons and Christians in my OP. Both sides are equally guilty IMO - including myself at times in moments of weakness.
I am trying to be better at being less contentious. It's difficult to resist when I'm told what I believe, what my intents are, and how I feel. If you could omit this commentary I'd be very grateful for your assistance.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
I don't believe this site is about making peace or obtaining information or understanding. This site is about the complete obliteration of another faith's beliefs. I'm only here to defend what I believe. I believe most of it is common sense and easy to understand. It is only through the dogma of modern Christians faiths that it's adherents come to understand the Bible. It is unfortunate that we can't get them to take the scriptures as a whole and stop focusing on the dogma and only what supports that dogma.
A false faith and belief system that leads people to spend an eternity in hell SHOULD BE OBLITERATED. So, we come here to show the truth of the Biblical Jesus and Gospel, and try to get Mormons to see the truth about their own religion--that it was founded by a lying false prophet and believes in a false God, a false Savior--the brother of Satan in the supposed pre-mortal existence--and a false Gospel that is NO Gospel at all, as Paul tells us. This is not down out of rancor or hate--it isn't with me--but out of love for the lost. I know some on the Lord's side get a bit too sarcastic at times, and I am sorry for that, but I try not to. I keep remembering Whose child I am, in Christ Jesus my Lord, and act accordingly.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
I believe the required acceptance of the Trinity is evidence to support my claim.
If I've mis-understood, and your saying I do not need to accept the Trinity and be still be considered a Christian, then I'll admit I was wrong.



Fair enough, but it's the lens of your beliefs of which are beliefs are judged.
As you stated earlier in another thread, proving me wrong doesn't make your claims true.


I think it's simply logic. When I introduce a term that's not in the text, I'm adding meaning not directly in the text. If the Bible is complete and sufficient for understanding, then new terms should not be required.


Yes, it goes into determination of the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of Jesus, along with how the term "God" is defined, and the relationship between the Father and the Son. There's a lot that goes into it, to be discussed on another thread.


No, it proves we don't trust our answer will be honestly evaluated and responded to because we've been burned too many times.



Glad to oblige:



No, I want peace. I want to stop being called to defend against false claims regarding my religion.
If you want an honest, civil, discussion. I'd really like that too.

I was addressing both Mormons and Christians in my OP. Both sides are equally guilty IMO - including myself at times in moments of weakness.
I am trying to be better at being less contentious. It's difficult to resist when I'm told what I believe, what my intents are, and how I feel. If you could omit this commentary I'd be very grateful for your assistance.
Many times, Aaron, those claims are NOT false at all. I have been told from time to time over the years on here, that I misrepresent Mormon beliefs. I have never knowingly done so. I am perfectly willing to admit when I am wrong IF I am shown proof. But many times, when I am accused of misrepresenting Mormon beliefs, I have proven from lds.org that I was correct all along--but the poster will refuse to admit that I was correct.

For instance--a couple of years ago on here, a Mormon told me that "when heavenly mother has children, she has physical children." Yet, I proved from no fewer than three places on lds.org, that your church teaches that HF and HM have spirit children in heaven, not physical children. This poster still refused to believe me and insisted that she has physical children. So, even when we are correct, some Mormons will refuse to admit it.

One poster who, I think has been banned, told me several years ago, that I constantly misrepresented what Mormons believe. I asked him for examples. He never gave me any. He said that there were so many, he couldn't list them all, but I just told him to give me one or two examples. Then he just said it would do no good, that I would never admit I was wrong. But that isn't true. I have always been willing to admit when I was wrong. I can give 3 examples:

1. That Mormons must be married in the temple in order to be exalted--a Mormon on here gently corrected me, telling me marriage in the temple is not necessary, just having that marriage SEALED in the temple was. I thanked him for the correction.

2. I got the Nephites mixed up with the Jaredites in the BoM. I forget the circumstances, but once I realized my mistake, I apologized on here for it.

3. I thought that JS said there were Quakers on the moon, whereas he simply thought that there were men on the moon who dressed "in the manner of the Quakers." I admitted my error and apologize for it.

Only one Mormon on here ever admitted to me that he had made a mistake in a post to me--and that was only after Dianaiad had told him he was wrong and I was correct. I always appreciated that from her.

the Bible IS complete and is God's word and we need no other writing to lead us to salvation, great and free, by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. We do not need pious fiction like the BoM, or the D and C and Pearl books, all three of which contradict each other, as my thread on the contradictions proves, and as the Prophet proved, with his more compact comparison that he could actually put on one post.
 

Aaron32

Active member
Many times, Aaron, those claims are NOT false at all. I have been told from time to time over the years on here, that I misrepresent Mormon beliefs. I have never knowingly done so. I am perfectly willing to admit when I am wrong IF I am shown proof. But many times, when I am accused of misrepresenting Mormon beliefs, I have proven from lds.org that I was correct all along--but the poster will refuse to admit that I was correct.

For instance--a couple of years ago on here, a Mormon told me that "when heavenly mother has children, she has physical children." Yet, I proved from no fewer than three places on lds.org, that your church teaches that HF and HM have spirit children in heaven, not physical children. This poster still refused to believe me and insisted that she has physical children. So, even when we are correct, some Mormons will refuse to admit it.

One poster who, I think has been banned, told me several years ago, that I constantly misrepresented what Mormons believe. I asked him for examples. He never gave me any. He said that there were so many, he couldn't list them all, but I just told him to give me one or two examples. Then he just said it would do no good, that I would never admit I was wrong. But that isn't true. I have always been willing to admit when I was wrong. I can give 3 examples:

1. That Mormons must be married in the temple in order to be exalted--a Mormon on here gently corrected me, telling me marriage in the temple is not necessary, just having that marriage SEALED in the temple was. I thanked him for the correction.

2. I got the Nephites mixed up with the Jaredites in the BoM. I forget the circumstances, but once I realized my mistake, I apologized on here for it.

3. I thought that JS said there were Quakers on the moon, whereas he simply thought that there were men on the moon who dressed "in the manner of the Quakers." I admitted my error and apologize for it.

Only one Mormon on here ever admitted to me that he had made a mistake in a post to me--and that was only after Dianaiad had told him he was wrong and I was correct. I always appreciated that from her.

the Bible IS complete and is God's word and we need no other writing to lead us to salvation, great and free, by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. We do not need pious fiction like the BoM, or the D and C and Pearl books, all three of which contradict each other, as my thread on the contradictions proves, and as the Prophet proved, with his more compact comparison that he could actually put on one post.
Fair enough. It’s difficult to admit being wrong, but I’ve learned a lot about Christianity, and being a Christian, on this board from my own failed arguments. I usually don’t fess up to in the heat of the moment, but my argument evolves over time, and I find it’s still supported by my scripture. BrianH was the one who helped me understand what saving faith really is, and it’s changed everything.
Having said that, I’m not sure how this follows in the point I was trying to make with Theo. I agree the Bible is all that is needed for understanding (in companionship with the Spirit), and I recognize the Trinity covers all points that describe God in the Bible, but I don’t agree that it’s true (given the “my car is a firetruck” example). I DID find a new perspective regarding my understanding of the Godhead, that I’m excited about, and I will post a new thread on it in the next day or so.
I’m glad we share the value of truth.
I also greatly enjoy the civility. Kudos!
 

Magdalena

Active member
I believe the required acceptance of the Trinity is evidence to support my claim.
If I've mis-understood, and your saying I do not need to accept the Trinity and be still be considered a Christian, then I'll admit I was wrong.



Fair enough, but it's the lens of your beliefs of which are beliefs are judged.
As you stated earlier in another thread, proving me wrong doesn't make your claims true.


I think it's simply logic. When I introduce a term that's not in the text, I'm adding meaning not directly in the text. If the Bible is complete and sufficient for understanding, then new terms should not be required.


Yes, it goes into determination of the nature of God, the nature of man, and the nature of Jesus, along with how the term "God" is defined, and the relationship between the Father and the Son. There's a lot that goes into it, to be discussed on another thread.


No, it proves we don't trust our answer will be honestly evaluated and responded to because we've been burned too many times.



Glad to oblige:



No, I want peace. I want to stop being called to defend against false claims regarding my religion.
If you want an honest, civil, discussion. I'd really like that too.

I was addressing both Mormons and Christians in my OP. Both sides are equally guilty IMO - including myself at times in moments of weakness.
I am trying to be better at being less contentious. It's difficult to resist when I'm told what I believe, what my intents are, and how I feel. If you could omit this commentary I'd be very grateful for your assistance.
It’s very hard to hear that beliefs we’ve based our lives on are wrong. But if the truth is what we really want, we need to stay open to it. Even if we don’t like what we hear. Sometimes it means making life altering decisions. That can be painful.

But the truth really does set you free. Trust Christ above all else.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
A false faith and belief system that leads people to spend an eternity in hell
Then you should stop following your false faith and belief system. You are the judge of what is right and true. I believe your faith system couldn't get any farther off base. The greatest farce perpetrated on mankind is modern Christian religions with their schooled preachers who have turned the sacred places into places for the money changers, but you don't see us setting up websites attacking your faith do you? Nope. We come here to defend ours.

But you are wrong about belief systems will cause people to spend eternity in hell. It's not the system. It's not the fact that you all are wrong. What would put a person in hell is what they do. If your a good person, what system you believe is right isn't going to make any difference if it's wrong unless that system evokes in you evil or wicked actions. It's all on the person and their choices, not their church or belief system.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
It’s very hard to hear that beliefs we’ve based our lives on are wrong. But if the truth is what we really want, we need to stay open to it. Even if we don’t like what we hear. Sometimes it means making life altering decisions. That can be painful.

But the truth really does set you free. Trust Christ above all else.
Amen to THAT, dear sister in Christ! JESUS saves us, NOT belonging to this or that church body, or doing temple works, etc. JESUS ALONE SAVES AND SAVES COMPLETELY.
 

Bonnie

Well-known member
Then you should stop following your false faith and belief system. You are the judge of what is right and true. I believe your faith system couldn't get any farther off base. The greatest farce perpetrated on mankind is modern Christian religions with their schooled preachers who have turned the sacred places into places for the money changers, but you don't see us setting up websites attacking your faith do you? Nope. We come here to defend ours.

But you are wrong about belief systems will cause people to spend eternity in hell. It's not the system. It's not the fact that you all are wrong. What would put a person in hell is what they do. If your a good person, what system you believe is right isn't going to make any difference if it's wrong unless that system evokes in you evil or wicked actions. It's all on the person and their choices, not their church or belief system.
What is false about it? Go to the Lutheran board and we can discuss it there

. We discuss what is false about YOUR church and faith HERE because this IS the MORMON board. NOT the "the Christian faith is wrong" board. There are other boards for that.

You really do not know what you are talking about as per preachers turning churches into places for money-changers. IF you are going by televangelists, do know that most of them are word of faith Prosperity preachers who know more preach the truth than...Mormon preachers do. I despise what those televangelists do. They preach and teach nothing but heresy.

But the vast majority of orthodox preachers are not like that. Again, I cannot speak for other church bodies, only my own--where the pastor works full time as a pastor, and where he never even handles any church money--the treasurer does. He or she pays the pastor out of the donations. And we know how our money is used because the treasurer keeps meticulous records and we usually have one or two congregational meetings a year, where we discuss how the church is doing financially, how our donations were used, where we need to improve, etc. We just had a zoom meeting last Sunday afternoon, that lasted about 1 1/2 hours. And not all of our donations go to supporting the pastor and his family, either. Some goes to the upkeep of the church building, paying for utilities, and some goes to missions by our church bodies, which most of our churches donate to.

People go to spend an eternity in hell because what they DO is they reject the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, as Mormons do. Faith is only as good as whom it is based upon. A false Christ saves NO ONE. ONLY the true Jesus Christ of the bible saves to eternal life. May Mormons stop fighting the HS and turn to the true Jesus Christ of the Bible to be saved, before it is too late.
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
What would put a person in hell is what they do.
Only in one respect. If you DO respond to God's CONVICTION OF SIN, and of Judgement, by Surrendering to Him in FAITH (that He gifts) and repenting of your SIN, placing your FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross to cleanse you from sin, THEN you're "Born AGain of the SPirit, and you've DONE all that you needed to do for you to be a Holy Spirit infilled Christian, perfect before God, and Heaven ready. THEN you can under HOly SPirit guidance, and discipline begin to do genuine "Good Works" which are NOT salvific, but only the normal outworking of the Holy Spirit in you.

HOWEVER, If you HAVEN'T DONE that ONE THING, you're hell-bound. Simple as that. There's no such thing as "Good works" for anybody that's not "Born Again of the Holy SPirit"
 

Aaron32

Active member
It’s very hard to hear that beliefs we’ve based our lives on are wrong. But if the truth is what we really want, we need to stay open to it. Even if we don’t like what we hear. Sometimes it means making life altering decisions. That can be painful.

But the truth really does set you free. Trust Christ above all else.
I agree! I dont know how that follows with the convo, though.
 

Aaron32

Active member
It’s very hard to hear that beliefs we’ve based our lives on are wrong. But if the truth is what we really want, we need to stay open to it. Even if we don’t like what we hear. Sometimes it means making life altering decisions. That can be painful.

But the truth really does set you free. Trust Christ above all else.
I agree! I don’t know how that follows with the convo, though.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
Only in one respect. If you DO respond to God's CONVICTION OF SIN, and of Judgement, by Surrendering to Him in FAITH (that He gifts) and repenting of your SIN
There's a lot of superfluous fluff in your post, but basically, that one respect is WORKS! I'll highlight the works you just listed. Basically, you just explained the difference between those who will be save and those who won't. The dividing line is on what they DO, not what they believe. If you don't respond to the Holy Ghost, if you don't surrender your old life, if you don't repent of your sins, YOU CANNOT BE SAVED no matter what you say or claim to believe.

If one does not DO what one believes, then that one does not believe.
 

brotherofJared

Active member
What is false about it?
It would be easier to list what's true about it. It's a very small list. But the point wasn't about who teaches the truth. The point was about you are not the judge of truth nor do you have any special access to truth that anyone else doesn't have. Therefore, you are arguing from your opinion. There are no facts, at least there are none that you can prove, involved in your judgment.
 
The doctrine of the Trinity was developed over Centuries. It’s true that there is One God, and Jesus is one with the Father, but there is no verse that specifically God is one being in three person. Yet, if we say we worship God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, that isn’t wrong, but that’s not necessarily false.
But Christians on the (Mormonism) board go one step further that you MUST accept the Trinity or you reject the WHOLE Bible. Well, that’s just wrong.

You can't also find the word "eclipse" in the bible when this verse reads, "The sun shall turn to darkness and the moon to blood". This obviously reveals a solar and lunar eclipse. We use modern words to describe what is written in the Bible for simplicity and clarity.
 
Top