The Prodigal Son

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Reformedguy

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Sheep or not, a believer's part can be removed out of the Book of Life according to Rev 22:19:

Rev 22:19 "And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book."

Also, there remains a possibility of one's name being blotted out of the Book of Life in Rev 3:5. Jesus is not in a habit of saying things he cannot do:

Rev 3:5 "The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Conclusion: the Reformed PofS crashes and burns.
So your answer is yes then? Christ is unable to keep some of His sheep and thereby loses them? Fails to save His people from their sins Matthew 1:23
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Just a side note I'd like to make about Eph 1:13 since we're looking at it. Notice that hearing and belief in the Gospel precede regeneration.

Eph 1:13 "in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, "

Of course you can not believe in something you haven't first "heard"... your problem is explaining how they came to believe it as something other than "foolishness". The natural person does not accept it because it is foolishness to them. If they believe it as the power and wisdom of God it is because they are something other than "natural".

What kind of person believes the "Word of Truth", as something other than foolishness, such that they do not contradict 2 Cor 2:14?

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Sketo

Well-known member
It is one choosing that can be viewed two ways:

But then you contradict yourself...

temporally and spiritually. Temporally, God chose us when we believed and were regenerated.

That is "AFTER the foundation"...

Spiritually, God chose us beyond time because He is not confined by time. To drive that point home, Paul declares that you were chosen by God (but only "in Christ") before the formation of the world.

You can't have your cake and eat it too...

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Synergy

Well-known member
Of course you can not believe in something you haven't first "heard"...
Are you agreeing with Eph 1:13 where it says that people believe in the Gospel before they are regenerated?
your problem is explaining how they came to believe it as something other than "foolishness". The naturalperson does not accept it because it is foolishness to them. If they believe it as the power and wisdom of God it is because they are something other than "natural".

What kind of person believes the "Word of Truth", as something other than foolishness, such that they do not contradict 2 Cor 2:14?
The kind of man who:

1) is not spiritually regenerated yet, and therefore cannot currently perceive spiritual things,
2) but nevertheless has been granted a conscience, a heart, and a mind by God (Rom 2:14-16),
3) and even made accountable to God's Gospel (Rom 2:16),
3) and is reachable by the power of the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry (John 16:7-15).

That kind of man is ψυχικὸς man who is transformed into a πνευματικὸς man when he believes and is regenerated by God.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
But then you contradict yourself...
Nope. I said two views of the same one choosing. One view is temporal (within our confines of time) and another view is spiritual (where God is not confined by time).
That is "AFTER the foundation"...
When were you regenerated by God? Hint: Eph 1:13.
You can't have your cake and eat it too...
If you don't understand the differences between temporal confines of time and the spiritual non-confines of time then you fall back into the untenable situation where you were at one time an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly or a not-yet-repented regenerated anomaly. And that hits hard against the Holiness of God.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Are you agreeing with Eph 1:13 where it says that people believe in the Gospel before they are regenerated?

The kind of man who:

1) is not spiritually regenerated yet, and therefore cannot currently perceive spiritual things,
2) but nevertheless has been granted a conscience, a heart, and a mind by God (Rom 2:14-16),
3) and even made accountable to God's Gospel (Rom 2:16),
3) and is reachable by the power of the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry (John 16:7-15).

That kind of man is ψυχικὸς man who is transformed into a πνευματικὸς man when he believes and is regenerated by God.

You have "ψυχικὸς" person "believing the word of the cross" as something other than "folly" before he is "transformed into πνευματικὸς"

... which is in direct contradiction to 1 Cor 2:14 which states...

14 The natural ψυχικὸς does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and ψυχικὸς is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

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Sketo

Well-known member
Nope. I said two views of the same one choosing. One view is temporal (within our confines of time) and another view is spiritual (where God is not confined by time).

When were you regenerated by God? Hint: Eph 1:13.

In God's mind as he planned, purposed, and determined All Things "BEFORE the foundation of the world" that is being manifest now in the timeline of creation.

If you don't understand the differences between temporal confines of time and the spiritual non-confines of time then you fall back into the untenable situation where you were at one time an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly or a not-yet-repented regenerated anomaly. And that hits hard against the Holiness of God.

Why do you continue to insist that "temporal confines of time" is necessary in order for God to purpose (choose) you "BEFORE the foundation of the world"?

Your system needs something "after" creation to determine God's actions "before" creation... why?

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Synergy

Well-known member
First of all, you skipped over my question:

Are you agreeing with Eph 1:13 where it says that people believe in the Gospel before they are regenerated?
You have "ψυχικὸς" person "believing the word of the cross" as something other than "folly" before he is "transformed into πνευματικὸς"

... which is in direct contradiction to 1 Cor 2:14 which states...

14 The natural ψυχικὸς does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and ψυχικὸς is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Second of all, although the ψυχικὸς man is not a πνευματικὸς man yet and cannot discern spiritual things, he can still has the following God-given capabilities/responsibilities:

1) He has been granted a conscience, a heart, and a mind by God (Rom 2:14-16),
2) and even made accountable to God's Gospel (Rom 2:16),
3) and is reachable by the power of the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry (John 16:7-15).

Which Bible verse(s) do you have issues with?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
First of all, you skipped over my question:

Are you agreeing with Eph 1:13 where it says that people believe in the Gospel before they are regenerated?

I agree with Eph 1:13 but not your false addition to it. Eph 1:13 says nothing about “regeneration”.

Second of all, although the ψυχικὸς man is not a πνευματικὸς man yet and cannot discern spiritual things, he can still has the following God-given capabilities/responsibilities:

1) He has been granted a conscience, a heart, and a mind by God (Rom 2:14-16),
2) and even made accountable to God's Gospel (Rom 2:16),
3) and is reachable by the power of the Holy Spirit's convicting ministry (John 16:7-15).

Which Bible verse(s) do you have issues with?

I do not take issue with any, for none of them support your contradiction of 1 Cor 2:14.

I take issue with your assumption that ψυχικὸς person does accept and understand the things of the Spirit of God, contained in the preaching of Christ crucified, as something other than “folly”.

Scripture is clearly against your assumption stating…

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Co 1:18)

…and…

but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are calledChrist the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1Co 1:23-24)

And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” (1Co 1:30)


Can you answer as to how the preaching of Christ crucified became to usthe power and wisdom of God” instead of “folly”?


 

Synergy

Well-known member
In God's mind as he planned, purposed, and determined All Things "BEFORE the foundation of the world" that is being manifest now in the timeline of creation.
Why do you continue to insist that "temporal confines of time" is necessary in order for God to purpose (choose) you "BEFORE the foundation of the world"?
Your system needs something "after" creation to determine God's actions "before" creation... why?
Because the Bible mentions both.

Chronologically:
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Spiritually:
Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

How does Calvinism reconcile Eph 2:11-13 ("in Christ" after foundation of the world) with Eph 1:4 ("in Christ" before foundation of the world)?
 
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