The Prodigal Son

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Synergy

Well-known member
It’s not rocket science!

God made you for a purpose and that purpose was determined “before the foundation of the world” (Prov 16:4).
Much more than your purpose was determined before the foundation of the world. God chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world.
If your purpose included that you be “in Christ” then and ultimately saved in the end then it can be said God “chose you in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4).
Are you saying that you're in Christ before the foundation of the world but not saved until much later, then what does that make you in the interval: an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly. Sounds like the not-yet-repented regenerated anomaly Calvinists promote.
This purpose plays out IN the time line of creation. You become “in Christ” at the moment God had predetermined that you be in Christ within the time line of creation.
That is before the foundation of the world?
God Planned, Purpose, and Determined All Things “before the foundation of the world”… and this included wether you would be “in Christ” or not.

The “timeline of creation” is the merely the outplay of his purposes.
That has you as an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly for a period of time?
 

Rockson

Active member
God also can not create a God like himself!

Do you agree?… or is this “telling God what he can and can’t do”?

My point I was making was actually to mimic the sense that I get from a lot of Calvinist who think it's wrong and horrible to challenge a position about God when they quote Rom 9:19,20. I believe in the Spirit in how he meant this verse to be used but not how Calvinists think about it.

Now about God giving us all free will. People of your position generally take what people who believe in free will to an extreme in a way a non-Calvinist doesn't believe. Non-Calvinists mostly I think have a common sense approach to what free will means, and that is free will with certain perimeters . Meaning man has free will to choose God or not he's at liberty to do so BUT free will won't go so far as to say one who rejects grace can back off from receiving judgement. God's will and what he says will prevail about that.

They guy in the video was saying God doesn't give free will at all. Don't buy it and his argument IMO is weak in trying to assert what he says.
 
G

guest1

Guest
My point I was making was actually to mimic the sense that I get from a lot of Calvinist who think it's wrong and horrible to challenge a position about God when they quote Rom 9:19,20. I believe in the Spirit in how he meant this verse to be used but not how Calvinists think about it.

Now about God giving us all free will. People of your position generally take what people who believe in free will to an extreme in a way a non-Calvinist doesn't believe. Non-Calvinists mostly I think have a common sense approach to what free will means, and that is free will with certain perimeters . Meaning man has free will to choose God or not he's at liberty to do so BUT free will won't go so far as to say one who rejects grace can back off from receiving judgement. God's will and what he says will prevail about that.

They guy in the video was saying God doesn't give free will at all. Don't buy it and his argument IMO is weak in trying to assert what he says.
I think it’s @Sketo in the video , he can correct me if I’m wrong.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
The Bible defines "free will"? Well let's see it.
Here are just a few of the verses where you have the free will to choose:

Deu 30:19 I call Heaven and earth to record today against you. I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore, choose life, so that both you and your seed may live,

Jos 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve Jehovah, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served Beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you live. But as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.

Psa 25:12 What man is he who fears Jehovah? He shall teach him in the way that he shall choose.

Pro 1:29 instead they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of Jehovah.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey he shall eat until he knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 56:4 For so says Jehovah to the eunuchs who keep My Sabbath, and choose things that please Me, and take hold of My covenant;


Not to mention all the other verses where people have the free will to refuse what God wants them to do.....
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Here are just a few of the verses where you have the free will to choose:

Deu 30:19 I call Heaven and earth to record today against you. I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore, choose life, so that both you and your seed may live,

Jos 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve Jehovah, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served Beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you live. But as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.

Psa 25:12 What man is he who fears Jehovah? He shall teach him in the way that he shall choose.

Pro 1:29 instead they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of Jehovah.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey he shall eat until he knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 56:4 For so says Jehovah to the eunuchs who keep My Sabbath, and choose things that please Me, and take hold of My covenant;


Not to mention all the other verses where people have the free will to refuse what God wants them to do.....
LOL, not one of those verses mentions free will let alone defines it. Good job
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Much more than your purpose was determined before the foundation of the world.

Correct for All Things were determined by God before the foundation of the world”… including how you would become in Christ within the timeline of His creation.

God chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Yes this is referring to what God Planned, Purposed, and Determined for us, “before the foundation of the world”… therefore in Gods mind you were already “in Christ”. The outplay of his mind unfolded in the timeline of creation.

Are you saying that you're in Christ before the foundation of the world…

In God’s mind yes… creation is the outplay.

but not saved until much later…

In the timeline of creation (after the foundation of the world) yes…

then what does that make you in the interval: an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly.

No. If you plan, purpose, and determine that your children be in a house, before the foundation of the house, does that mean that they are “in the house” before it’s foundation? Of course not because there is a difference between what you planned before the foundation and the outplay that occurs after the foundation.

It means you planned, purposed, and determined them to be in that house, after the house is created, within the timeline of that house’s existence.

Sounds like the not-yet-repented regenerated anomaly Calvinists promote.

That’s because you are trying to mix in your false preconceived ideas. You adopted the false idea that “election” can only happen within the timeline of creation and not “before”.

In Gods mind, before the foundation of the world, God had already planned, purposed, and determined your “repentance” as a part of how you would be “in Christ” within the timeline of creation.

That is before the foundation of the world?

Exactly… “before” anything created existed… when created things only existed in the mind of God.

That has you as an unsaved "in Christ" anomaly for a period of time?

It’s not an anomaly when you allow the distinction of what existed in Gods mind “before” and what unfolds “after” the foundation. The entire plan of God existed in the mind of God “before the foundation of the world began”.

It does not make sense to you because you need “God chose us” to only be possible after the foundation of the world in order for your system to work.

 
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American Gothic

Well-known member
So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.
does Humanity know what it was like before the Fall?
are they even aware there was a Fall?

We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son.
100 percent the Lord's doing?
99.9 percent God,
00.1 percent Us?

The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son retuned home, the Father did not call him home.
Does God bother to say anything to Us in this regard?


if fallen Humanity is the prodigal son,
Who is/are the older son?
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Correct for All Things were determined by God before the foundation of the world”… including how you would become in Christ within the timeline of His creation.
Yes this is referring to what God Planned, Purposed, and Determined for us, “before the foundation of the world”… therefore in Gods mind you were already “in Christ”. The outplay of his mind unfolded in the timeline of creation.
You're saying that God is ok with unsaved people being "in Christ"? If that's the case then what type of a Holy God are we talking about here? You're attempting to impose Calvinist theories on the Bible and God, even to the point of denigrating God's Holiness, and it's not working.
In God’s mind yes… creation is the outplay.
In the timeline of creation (after the foundation of the world) yes…
Again, your view is that in God is ok with "in Christ" people being unsaved.
No. If you plan, purpose, and determine that your children be in a house, before the foundation of the house, does that mean that they are “in the house” before it’s foundation? Of course not because there is a difference between what you planned before the foundation and the outplay that occurs after the foundation.
Spiritually, it is possible with God because God is above space & time. When we believe and are regenerated is when we are placed "in Christ" which makes Eph 1:4 true for us. Only if we are "in Christ" are we the elect. Election is conditional as per 2 Pet 1:10. Outside of "in Christ" we're on our own.
It means you planned, purposed, and determined them to be in that house, after the house is created, within the timeline of that house’s existence.
Again, God did more than "planned, purposed, and determined". He chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world.
That’s because you are trying to mix in your false preconceived ideas. You adopted the false idea that “election” can only happen within the timeline of creation and not “before”.
Nope. Spiritually, Eph 1:4 is possible for us with God because God is above space & time. When we believe and are regenerated is when we are placed "in Christ" which allows makes Eph 1:4 true for us.
In Gods mind, before the foundation of the world, God had already planned, purposed, and determined your “repentance” as a part of how you would be “in Christ” within the timeline of creation.
Eph 1:4 takes us to beyond the timeline of creation, into the heavenlies "in Christ" (Eph 2:6) where there's no chronological time.

Eph 2:5 (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Exactly… “before” anything created existed… when created things only existed in the mind of God.

It’s not an anomaly when you allow the distinction of what existed in Gods mind “before” and what unfolds “after” the foundation. The entire plan of God existed in the mind of God “before the foundation of the world began”.
Any which way you cut it an unsaved "in Christ" person is still an anomaly.
It does not make sense to you because you need “God chose us” to only be possible after the foundation of the world in order for your system to work.
Nope. Not at all. When we believe and are regenerated is when we are placed "in Christ" which allows makes Eph 1:4 true for us. Calvinists have a major problem with their untenable promotion of not-yet-repented regenerated people and now unsaved "in Christ" people. What further anomalies will we discover in Calvinism?
 

Howie

Well-known member

Sketo

Well-known member
It does not make sense to you because you need “God chose us” to only be possible after the foundation of the world in order for your system to work.
Nope. Not at all. 👉 When we believe and are regenerated is when 👈we are placed "in Christ" which allows makes Eph 1:4 true for us. Calvinists have a major problem with their untenable promotion of not-yet-repented regenerated people and now unsaved "in Christ" people. What further anomalies will we discover in Calvinism?

Eph 1:4 states “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love” (Eph 1:4)

Yet you claim, the opposite of Eph 1:4, that we can only be “chosen in him” after “the foundation of the world”… “When we believe and are regenerated is when”.


What does the “before the foundation” mean in your understanding?

 

Synergy

Well-known member
I've already given you a very clear answer to that.
It fits nicely. No negative affect.
Let's take it step by step:
1) You were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, and then
2) you were not "in Christ" and
3) now you're "in Christ".

Question #1: What caused you to transition from "in Christ" (Step 1) to not "in Christ" (Step 2)?

Question #2: How does all that transtioning fit in with the Calvinist theory that as an elect you're always saved "in Christ"?
 

Howie

Well-known member
Let's take it step by step:
1) You were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, and then
2) you were not "in Christ" and
3) now you're "in Christ".

Question #1: What caused you to transition from "in Christ" (Step 1) to not "in Christ" (Step 2)?

Question #2: How does all that transtioning fit in with the Calvinist theory that as an elect you're always saved "in Christ"?
I'm not interested in games with you.

Your understanding of Eph 1 isbyour understanding if it, not mine. Yours is a novelty, mine has a history.

😉
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Eph 1:4 states “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love” (Eph 1:4)

Yet you claim, the opposite of Eph 1:4, that we can only be “chosen in him” after “the foundation of the world”… “When we believe and are regenerated is when”.


What does the “before the foundation” mean in your understanding?

Temporally, we are chosen "in Christ" when we believe and are regenerated.

At that moment: Spiritually, we are raised up and made to "sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" Who is not confined
by temporal space and time. Thus, allowing Eph 1:4 to be true for us, only when we are "in Christ".

Eph 2:5 (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Let's take it step by step:
1) You were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, and then
2) you were not "in Christ" and
3) now you're "in Christ".

Question #1: What caused you to transition from "in Christ" (Step 1) to not "in Christ" (Step 2)?

You are conflating “in Christ” in Gods mind “BEFORE the foundation of the world” and us being “in Christ” in the timeline of creation “AFTER the foundation of the world”.

God “chose us in Christ before…” is nothing more than God purposing us before.

“The LORD has made everything for its purpose…” (Pro 16:4)

When was our purpose “chosen”?

Answer: “before the foundation of the world” when only God existed.

Question #2: How does all that transtioning fit in with the Calvinist theory that as an elect you're always saved "in Christ"?

You are trying to create an unnecessary “transition” by conflating “before” and “after” the foundation.

“BEFORE” is referencing God’s purpose for making “us”…

and this predetermined purpose plays out “AFTER” the foundation of the world.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
I'm not interested in games with you.

Your understanding of Eph 1 isbyour understanding if it, not mine. Yours is a novelty, mine has a history.

😉
You possess the free will to consider critical thinking a "game" for you.
 
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