The Promised Land

Timtofly

Member
Is where Israel now located the Promised Land spoken of in the Old Testamant?
A tiny sliver. Iraq and the whole Arabian peninsula was given to Abraham. Part of Egypt and Gaza as well, all the way to the Nile River. The Euphrates starts in Turkey. Keban Dam on the Euphrates is in the middle of Turkey. I doubt Turkey would let Israel control all their territory up to the Euphrates River. Genesis 15:18

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"

I guess one could argue which seed of Abraham did God choose to carry out this promise.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
A tiny sliver. Iraq and the whole Arabian peninsula was given to Abraham. Part of Egypt and Gaza as well, all the way to the Nile River. The Euphrates starts in Turkey. Keban Dam on the Euphrates is in the middle of Turkey. I doubt Turkey would let Israel control all their territory up to the Euphrates River. Genesis 15:18

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"

I guess one could argue which seed of Abraham did God choose to carry out this promise.
I guess the problem would be.....the Israelites (and Israel) were the sons of Jacob, the grandson of Abraham . Abraham was also the Father of Ishmael (by Hagar)....the progenitor of Islamic people (many would say).

The Promised Land did not include territory to the Euphrates but only land around the Jordan (east of Jordan above Moab)....but not to the "Great River"......but to the Great Sea (Mediterranean)

So.......the "seed of Abraham" includes more than just the Israelites and their "Promised Land".
 

Hawkeye

Active member
I guess the problem would be.....the Israelites (and Israel) were the sons of Jacob, the grandson of Abraham . Abraham was also the Father of Ishmael (by Hagar)....the progenitor of Islamic people (many would say).

The Promised Land did not include territory to the Euphrates but only land around the Jordan (east of Jordan above Moab)....but not to the "Great River"......but to the Great Sea (Mediterranean)

So.......the "seed of Abraham" includes more than just the Israelites and their "Promised Land".
Abraham also had many more sons....as well [Genesis 25].
 

Timtofly

Member
I guess the problem would be.....the Israelites (and Israel) were the sons of Jacob, the grandson of Abraham . Abraham was also the Father of Ishmael (by Hagar)....the progenitor of Islamic people (many would say).

The Promised Land did not include territory to the Euphrates but only land around the Jordan (east of Jordan above Moab)....but not to the "Great River"......but to the Great Sea (Mediterranean)

So.......the "seed of Abraham" includes more than just the Israelites and their "Promised Land".
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

As for other children, sure. They can be part of the blessing.

God also rejected Esau.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[Genesis 17:20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

I'm not saying this because I'm rejecting Isaac. I'm saying this because it's scripture.
 

Timtofly

Member
[Genesis 17:20] And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

I'm not saying this because I'm rejecting Isaac. I'm saying this because it's scripture.
Ishmael was a great Nation for 600 years. Then came Israel. Never said there was no nation at all.
 

Timtofly

Member
So.....what exactly is it you're saying. Does the "Promised Land" go all the way to the Great river....or does it not?
I would say it does. Even after Jericho, there were 3 tribes on the east side of the Jordan in current day Jordan. The west Bank to the Sea is only a sliver of what it was even in the first century.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
I would say it does. Even after Jericho, there were 3 tribes on the east side of the Jordan in current day Jordan. The west Bank to the Sea is only a sliver of what it was even in the first century
[Numbers 34:10-12] And ye shall point out your east border from Hazarenan to Shepham: And the coast shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall descend, and shall reach unto the side of the sea of Chinnereth eastward: And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about.

This basically says.....the northern border from the Mediterranean was to go east to "Hazar Enan/Riblah" which is somewhat northeast of Damascus (75miles)....but far from the Euphrates and then south along the eastern slopes of the sea of Galilee highlands. Then at the "Pains of Moab"..... turn sharply west to the Jordan....and then south to the Dead Sea.

You are correct! Israel was indeed told in [Deuteronomy 11:24] the following:

Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.

But......[Deuteronomy 19] qualifies that to depend upon their obedience to Yahweh's commands.

The borders described in Numbers take place shortly before they were to cross Jordan into the "Promised Land".

The West Bank is still legitimately Israeli territory..... IMHO.
 

Timtofly

Member
[Numbers 34:10-12] And ye shall point out your east border from Hazarenan to Shepham: And the coast shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall descend, and shall reach unto the side of the sea of Chinnereth eastward: And the border shall go down to Jordan, and the goings out of it shall be at the salt sea: this shall be your land with the coasts thereof round about.

This basically says.....the northern border from the Mediterranean was to go east to "Hazar Enan/Riblah" which is somewhat northeast of Damascus (75miles)....but far from the Euphrates and then south along the eastern slopes of the sea of Galilee highlands. Then at the "Pains of Moab"..... turn sharply west to the Jordan....and then south to the Dead Sea.

You are correct! Israel was indeed told in [Deuteronomy 11:24] the following:

Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.

But......[Deuteronomy 19] qualifies that to depend upon their obedience to Yahweh's commands.

The borders described in Numbers take place shortly before they were to cross Jordan into the "Promised Land".

The West Bank is still legitimately Israeli territory..... IMHO.
If the point is should they, yes!

Currently they do not even hold the Promised Land according to Numbers as was quoted.

Even holding what they should is still future as well as the whole. Most argue it was all in the past, nothing more to fulfill. God is not finished with Abraham's covenant. The church cannot hold any real estate on earth. It could never fulfill that promise. Not even the Israel of Hebrews 11. Yes, there is a future Israel that will still come and fulfill OT prophecy.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
God is not finished with Abraham's covenant. The church cannot hold any real estate on earth. It could never fulfill that promise. Not even the Israel of Hebrews 11. Yes, there is a future Israel that will still come and fulfill OT prophecy.

Truer words have never been spoken.....my friend!
 

Hawkeye

Active member
God is not finished with Abraham's covenant. The church cannot hold any real estate on earth. It could never fulfill that promise. Not even the Israel of Hebrews 11. Yes, there is a future Israel that will still come and fulfill OT prophecy.
We'll try that again...........

Truer words have never been spoken..........my friend!
 
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