The prophesied Restoration

Every single verse written above is either word for word from the Bible or an allusion to a verse in the Bible. You should know this if you have ever read the Bible. For example, (v4)

“I am the first and the last” is in the book of Isaiah, Gospels, and the book of revelations.​
IOW, NOT unique or new.

Then you won't mind giving us the names of churches which have experienced those kinds of heavenly visitations--with witnesses?
 
As you can see--the critics here are arguing against the fact repentance and water baptism is even part of the gospel.
Nope. There is not a single christian who denies that repentance and water baptism were part of the early church.
My point is repentance and water baptism was the very beginning of the gospel, as Mark 1 testifies to.
And so does every christian.
They don't believe the same thing concerning repentance and water baptism, what it is, or what it's for.
Christians do not believe that the ritual of water baptism provides any eternal rewards as you do. (Although, Catholics may have once taught that.) As far as I know the consensus today is that water baptism is a symbolic representation of the inner change. It is what Christians do to announce to the world that they have identified themselves with the Jewish-Christian faith. Therefore, you are squabbling over a technicality turning it into a giant issue in order to make yourself seem distinct from the rest of Christianity. Why? Because you have nothing else, other than JS’s authority that he claims for himself.

Or to the numerous other appearances of heavenly beings.
Right…., ;) all those supernatural appearances that “prove” what you believe. BTW, I am curious, how many supernatural appearances of angels have you seen? What did they say? Any new information revealed…?
 
Then you won't mind giving us the names of churches which have experienced those kinds of heavenly visitations--with witnesses?
It was recently told that some man claimed an angel appeared to him and told him that he was given authority to restore repentance and baptism to the world.

Should I believe him?
How do I verify he is telling the truth?
Or am I just to believe he is telling the truth because he said so?
Or should I just pray about it until I get a warm feeling? Warm feeling is true, cold feeling is, nah, turn on the TV.
 
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It's specifically identified as to what it is:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Your idea of the gospel seems to run contrary to that claim, but there it is, and it's the Biblical testimony.

As I have maintained all along--the critics here have precious little in common with the testimony of the Biblical NT. They label what they believe as "Christianity"--but it's a Christianity far removed from the true Christianity of the Biblical NT.

Anyone care to engage this?
That isn't the Gospel, dberrie. You are clueless as to what it is and can't explain it to anybody. Your bold quotes indicate it is the beginning of the Gospel which makes your quote meaningless since you can't explain it to anyone. You cut and paste and think that answers the questions. Since you don't even know what the Gospel consists of, why try to post on a thread talking about the RESTORATION of the Gospel. It makes you look foolish.
 
No one is accusing them of causing the apostasy. The Catholic religion doesn't appear in history as a church until around 325AD. The apostasy was complete by 70AD with the destruction of the temple. No formal Christian church operating as the New Testament church that Christ established could be found anywhere. With the death of the apostles the church died. All that was left was a cornerstone with no foundation.

The claims of organizations are all documented in history, that doesn't make them true or correct. One thing is painfully obvious, where are the apostles? Without them, where does anyone get the authority to claim orthodoxy? What we find in history is documents of attempts to explain away the obvious - the gaping hole where on the foundation of the church was to be laid.

History aside was the church built on a foundation of prophets and apostles? Yes or no? If we are to believe the Bible - without resorting to your biased excuses - we have to say, yes.

Now, I know that Heb 1:1-2 are used as the basis (or biased excuse making) for dismissing the need for apostles and prophets, all the while, ignoring that it was an apostle who wrote it and not one of the original apostles at that. There is no formal dissolving of the apostleship, that quorum anywhere in the Bible or in history. They were simply killed, murdered - exactly as Jesus said they would be.

Now, regardless of all the biased excuse making that history has recorded for us, one glaring fact stands out. When Jesus Christ established his church there were 12 apostles. At some point in history, very early on in history, there were no more apostles. The Catholic Church doesn't have any and none of the Protestant churches have any. That is the basis for an apostasy. None of the churches that came out of the early church had in them apostles and Prophets. None of them. That is a fact of unbiased history. The question that remains is, is the Bible correct when an apostle made the statement that the church is founded upon profits and apostles? If that is the foundation of the church, then when those apostles disappeared, the church was in full apostasy. All churches formed after that time cannot claim authority and cannot claim to be the reformed Church or the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

I believe a better question would be what did the reformation produce and that even remotely looked like the church Jesus Christ established? All of the early Reformation were just imitations of the Catholic Church with a piece here or a piece there removed or altered to fix a certain disagreement.

I think you are assuming that the Catholic church had it right at some point and then apostasized but that isn't our claim. The Catholic church had it wrong and all of its little children which rolled out of the Catholic Church couldn't put Humpty back together again with all the king's horses and All the King's Men. Sadly that was one broken egg that could not be reformed.

The other problem I see here is that you are assuming that Joseph Smith did something. The church is not Joseph Smith's invention. He didn't study the Bible and decide to organize a church that more closely resembles the early church than any church that existed around him. That would have made him a genius and I admit that he very well might have been but it wasn't a genius of his own making. What was restored through Joseph Smith was the authority to administer the Gospel of Jesus Christ. None of the churches after the apostasy when the apostles were killed had the authority to administer the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They were all imitations. Unfortunately, they imitated a broken Church.
I'm sure you can back that up the bolded part with actual historical evidence, because that is the most ridiculous thing I have seen you post. The apostle John lived about 25 years after the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem when he wrote Revelation. In chapter two and three he lists the seven CHURCHES-- actual churches-- at the time. They all had their problems except two, but God's Holy Spirit was still working. So your argument falls way short.

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. have always been part of the church and have existed. apostles are those sent out and commissioned to start new works. Prophets are not like OT prophets, but are encouragers for the people to stay the course with God's word and live out the saving Gospel once delivered to the saints.

The biblical church has always been a body of believers, not an institution that you, the Catholics or certain Protestant denominations believe. There have always been problems in practicing what was taught. Paul's letters to the Corinthians are an example. They had numerous problems-- but were still considered the church.
 
That isn't the Gospel, dberrie.

Again--your argument is with the scriptures--not me:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

One might make the point the gospel consist of additional things--but one can't make the point Mark 1:1-5 isn't the gospel, without violating the testimony of the scriptures.
 
It was recently told that some man claimed an angel appeared to him and told him that he was given authority to restore repentance and baptism to the world.

Should I believe him?
How do I verify he is telling the truth?
Or am I just to believe he is telling the truth because he said so?

There are many today who ask the same questions concerning the apostle's testimony of the NT witness.

My thoughts on that are--there seems to be some parameters surrounding the claims of mankind concerning their claims receiving heavenly revelation:

1) They have witnesses.
2) Their testimonies are canonized into scripture.
3) Their testimonies remain after time.

So--what do you have to offer us, with respect to other churches--which demonstrates an event of this unique nature?

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Only the NT church, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints share those unique events, with the corresponding evidence. If you disagree--then please provide us with the evidence otherwise.
 
Nope. There is not a single christian who denies that repentance and water baptism were part of the early church.

Again--if you will notice--Organgrinder has argued adamantly that isn't even the gospel.

What many churches do argue is this:

Acts 2:38--King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's God's grace for one's obedience.

Christians do not believe that the ritual of water baptism provides any eternal rewards as you do.

Exactly. Which means they do not believe the scriptures:

Mark 16:16---King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Is being saved an eternal reward?

Right…., ;) all those supernatural appearances that “prove” what you believe.

Heavenly appearances can certainly be shown as one of the unique characteristics of God's church, such as the NT appearance of Christ, Moses, Elias, or angelic beings. There is also a history of heavenly appearances in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You still haven't provided any examples of any other church which has those traits.
 
There are many today who ask the same questions concerning the apostle's testimony of the NT witness.

My thoughts on that are--there seems to be some parameters surrounding the claims of mankind concerning their claims receiving heavenly revelation:

1) They have witnesses.
2) Their testimonies are canonized into scripture.
3) Their testimonies remain after time.

So--what do you have to offer us, with respect to other churches--which demonstrates an event of this unique nature?

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Only the NT church, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints share those unique events, with the corresponding evidence. If you disagree--then please provide us with the evidence otherwise.
So the discussion is no longer about what reason and evidence we have but who has the bigger angel story. Sorry, I stopped believing in faerie tales a long time ago. Your angel story wins!
 
Apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. have always been part of the church and have existed.

The names were given in the NT of their living, mortal apostles of Jesus Christ.

Can you give us the names of your living, mortal apostles?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can.
 
So the discussion is no longer about what reason and evidence we have but who has the bigger angel story.

Or--who has any "angel story" at all.

Where are your offerings of what church has the Heavenly visitations, with witnesses, and as canonized scripture--other than the NT church, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
 
Or--who has any "angel story" at all.

Where are your offerings of what church has the Heavenly visitations, with witnesses, and as canonized scripture--other than the NT church, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
I have no angel stories, that is why I said that your angel story wins. But you may want to check with the catholics before you declare yourself the winner. I bet they have some whopper angel stories too, probably weeping statues, exorcisms, and donuts in the face of Jesus, etc.
 
The names were given in the NT of their living, mortal apostles of Jesus Christ.

Can you give us the names of your living, mortal apostles?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can.
Go read Ephesians 4:11 and Revelation 2:2. Those are ministries and church offices. Churches had them. You are hung up on the names of 12 for your institution. There are many in the biblical church of Jesus who function in the offices. No names are listed, either. My last two churches had all five. God's calling and gifts are irrevocable. And all born-again believers share in in Jesus's ministry of priest, prophet and king.
 
I have no angel stories, that is why I said that your angel story wins. But you may want to check with the catholics before you declare yourself the winner. I bet they have some whopper angel stories too, probably weeping statues, exorcisms, and donuts in the face of Jesus, etc.

That may be true--but the pattern shown by the NT testimony is heavenly appearances, with witnesses--which are recorded as scripture.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fits that pattern.
 
That may be true--but the pattern shown by the NT testimony is heavenly appearances, with witnesses--which are recorded as scripture.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fits that pattern.
Whatever gets you through the day…
 
Go read Ephesians 4:11 and Revelation 2:2. Those are ministries and church offices. Churches had them.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still does have the living, mortal apostles and prophets.

Think of that--the NT church foundation was described as the prophets and apostles, and that was the living, mortal apostles and prophets.

The churches of this day do not even pretend they possess that very foundation--as the NT church had.

You are hung up on the names of 12 for your institution.

I can name the twelve in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--and the NT. They had names--because they were real, and actually existed as the foundation of His church.

The churches of today can only look back 1900 years to connect with that.

There are many in the biblical church of Jesus who function in the offices. No names are listed, either.

There were names of the apostles listed in the Biblical NT. That's because they were living, mortal apostles.

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

My last two churches had all five. God's calling and gifts are irrevocable. And all born-again believers share in in Jesus's ministry of priest, prophet and king.

It was the apostles and prophets which formed the very foundation of His church:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still does have the living, mortal apostles and prophets.

Think of that--the NT church foundation was described as the prophets and apostles, and that was the living, mortal apostles and prophets.

The churches of this day do not even pretend they possess that very foundation--as the NT church had.



I can name the twelve in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--and the NT. They had names--because they were real, and actually existed as the foundation of His church.

The churches of today can only look back 1900 years to connect with that.



There were names of the apostles listed in the Biblical NT. That's because they were living, mortal apostles.

Acts 16:4-5---King James Version
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.



It was the apostles and prophets which formed the very foundation of His church:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
It is sad you r4eally don't know how to read and study the Bible. The Church today still has living apostles, prophets, teachers, and evangelists. The five-fold ministry is still present as it always has been.

I refer you to the following scripture passage in 2 Corinthians 8:22:

2 Cor 8:23
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
KJV

Who are these unnamed "messengers" of the churches (plural)?

The "messengers" are what the Greek word says they are in Strong's
NT:652

apostolos (ap-os'-tol-os); from NT:649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ["apostle"] (with miraculous powers):
KJV - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

He isn't talking about the 11 remaining apostles who attended his Ascension into heaven. Who are they? There were and still are numerous apostles who have been commissioned and sent out to establish churches based upon the Gospel of Jesus and what that means to those living in darkness. The church has never lost the five-fold ministry. There were always believers even during the darkest times of church history, but never a complete apostasy that you Mormons need to justify a "restoration". God does the commissioning of His leaders, not man. Paul is a perfect example.

The Gospel has always been the Gospel. Even before it was put on parchment, it was written in the heavens themselves (Psalm 19). The biblical Gospel and the Mormon gospel differ, but you would actually need to know the biblical Gospel in order to explain it. You have failed to do so time and again, copy and pasting verses ABOUT the Gospel but never explaining what the Gospel actually is. So when you are speaking about a "restoration", you are speaking from a point of ignorance.

The church is the ekklesia (assembly, called out ones) and not limited to an institution. The church is a living breathing organism of people, not a staid institution. It is world-wide with Jesus Christ as the Head , Ruler and King. It was built as scripture says on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.
 
It is sad you r4eally don't know how to read and study the Bible. The Church today still has living apostles, prophets, teachers, and evangelists. The five-fold ministry is still present as it always has been.

Please do list for us what church today has the living, mortal apostles and prophets--as the NT church did.

You can start and end here--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I refer you to the following scripture passage in 2 Corinthians 8:22:

2 Cor 8:23
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
KJV

That does nothing to dispel the fact the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets--who had a special witness of Jesus Christ.

The NT church also received heavenly revelation and visitation through those apostles.

What church today are you claiming has that?

Who are these unnamed "messengers" of the churches (plural)?

Again--we are able to identify who the apostles were in the NT church--we have their names.

Who are you claiming are apostles in your church? What are their names?

He isn't talking about the 11 remaining apostles who attended his Ascension into heaven.

Then he isn't referring to the apostles of Jesus Christ, as special witnesses.

The church has never lost the five-fold ministry. There were always believers even during the darkest times of church history, but never a complete apostasy that you Mormons need to justify a "restoration". God does the commissioning of His leaders, not man. Paul is a perfect example.

So--what heavenly event can you provide for us to back that claim for your church?

That there would be a restoration is prophesied of:

Acts 3:21--King James Version
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
 
Please do list for us what church today has the living, mortal apostles and prophets--as the NT church did.

You can start and end here--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



That does nothing to dispel the fact the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets--who had a special witness of Jesus Christ.

The NT church also received heavenly revelation and visitation through those apostles.

What church today are you claiming has that?



Again--we are able to identify who the apostles were in the NT church--we have their names.

Who are you claiming are apostles in your church? What are their names?



Then he isn't referring to the apostles of Jesus Christ, as special witnesses.



So--what heavenly event can you provide for us to back that claim for your church?

That there would be a restoration is prophesied of:

Acts 3:21--King James Version
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Go back and read my post, dberrie and quit trying to derail and switch the emphasis. I made it clear enough in #58.
 
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