The prophesied Restoration

Nope. There is not a single christian who denies that repentance and water baptism were part of the early church.
That is telling. It appears that you're admitting that your churches today resemble nothing of the church that Christ established. You don't think that's a problem?
 
So the discussion is no longer about what reason and evidence we have but who has the bigger angel story. Sorry, I stopped believing in faerie tales a long time ago. Your angel story wins!
LOL. I have to wonder why u believe the very same "tales" that you have from the Bible. Obviously, you haven't stopped believing in them. You just pick and choose which ones you're willing to believe.
 
Go back and read my post, dberrie and quit trying to derail and switch the emphasis. I made it clear enough in #58.

And I answered your post here:

It is sad you r4eally don't know how to read and study the Bible. The Church today still has living apostles, prophets, teachers, and evangelists. The five-fold ministry is still present as it always has been.

"Please do list for us what church today has the living, mortal apostles and prophets--as the NT church did.

You can start and end here--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I refer you to the following scripture passage in 2 Corinthians 8:22:

2 Cor 8:23
Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.
KJV

That does nothing to dispel the fact the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets--who had a special witness of Jesus Christ.

The NT church also received heavenly revelation and visitation through those apostles.

What church today are you claiming has that?

Who are these unnamed "messengers" of the churches (plural)?

Again--we are able to identify who the apostles were in the NT church--we have their names.

Who are you claiming are apostles in your church? What are their names?

He isn't talking about the 11 remaining apostles who attended his Ascension into heaven.

Then he isn't referring to the apostles of Jesus Christ, as special witnesses.

The church has never lost the five-fold ministry. There were always believers even during the darkest times of church history, but never a complete apostasy that you Mormons need to justify a "restoration". God does the commissioning of His leaders, not man. Paul is a perfect example.

So--what heavenly event can you provide for us to back that claim for your church?

That there would be a restoration is prophesied of:

Acts 3:21--King James Version
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Care to engage that?
 
And I answered your post here:



"Please do list for us what church today has the living, mortal apostles and prophets--as the NT church did.

You can start and end here--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



That does nothing to dispel the fact the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets--who had a special witness of Jesus Christ.

The NT church also received heavenly revelation and visitation through those apostles.

What church today are you claiming has that?



Again--we are able to identify who the apostles were in the NT church--we have their names.

Who are you claiming are apostles in your church? What are their names?



Then he isn't referring to the apostles of Jesus Christ, as special witnesses.



So--what heavenly event can you provide for us to back that claim for your church?

That there would be a restoration is prophesied of:

Acts 3:21--King James Version
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Care to engage that?
No. You are ignorant of how to exegete scripture and explain a simple Gospel message. Answering you again would be a wase of my time.
 

That's what I thought. You refuse to engage my retort to you.

You are ignorant of how to exegete scripture and explain a simple Gospel message.

What could be any simpler than what the scriptures testify to?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Answering you again would be a wase of my time.

Obviously--answering the first time would be considered a waste also, as I haven't seen that either.
 
That's what I thought. You refuse to engage my retort to you.



What could be any simpler than what the scriptures testify to?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.



Obviously--answering the first time would be considered a waste also, as I haven't seen that either.
I answered you in post #58. In the example quoted, there were unnamed apostles. Apostles still exist in many countries today. That hasn't changed. Church denominations are immaterial. What do you think in happening in China, North Korea and Iran? They don't put a shingle on the home to make the announcement do they?

You still appear to remain ignorant of much regarding scripture and certainly still haven't been able to explain the Gospel. You can quote all the snippets of scripture you like, but you have little understanding.
 
I answered you in post #58. In the example quoted, there were unnamed apostles.
Apostles still exist in many countries today. That hasn't changed.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still have the quorum of the twelve apostles--with names.

Church denominations are immaterial.

How so?? There was only one denomination which Christ recognized in the NT--and it was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets--which experienced heavenly events.

What denomination are you claiming has that?

You still appear to remain ignorant of much regarding scripture and certainly still haven't been able to explain the Gospel. You can quote all the snippets of scripture you like, but you have little understanding.

But you deny this is the gospel--do have the proper understanding?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
 
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still have the quorum of the twelve apostles--with names.



How so?? There was only one denomination which Christ recognized in the NT--and it was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets--which experienced heavenly events.

What denomination are you claiming has that?



But you deny this is the gospel--do have the proper understanding?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Many denominations have sent out apostles. Your church wouldn't be openly promoting the gospel--,even if you or it knew what it was- in China, North Korea or Iran.

I have already responded to your repeated scriptural quotation that you continue to post. That is not the Gospel. Further posting of that same scripture will be ignored.
 
Many denominations have sent out apostles.

True apostles have an authority which is given through a heavenly event, where heavenly beings are sent and seen ---to carry the heavenly authority to them which God chooses to be special witnesses. Those events also become recorded scripture--if the NT pattern is true.

What denomination are you claiming has had those experiences--with witnesses?

There is only one that I am aware of today--which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I have already responded to your repeated scriptural quotation that you continue to post. That is not the Gospel.

Denial won't change what the scriptures testify to:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
 
True apostles have an authority which is given through a heavenly event, where heavenly beings are sent and seen ---to carry the heavenly authority to them which God chooses to be special witnesses. Those events also become recorded scripture--if the NT pattern is true.

What denomination are you claiming has had those experiences--with witnesses?

There is only one that I am aware of today--which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.



Denial won't change what the scriptures testify to:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
That is your assumption, dberrie. You don't even know what the word "apostle" means any more than you know how to explain the Gospel. You don't know either of those two and yet you think you can tell us about an alleged restoration? You don't know the first thing about it because you don't know the Gospel.
 
dberrie2020 said: True apostles have an authority which is given through a heavenly event, where heavenly beings are sent and seen ---to carry the heavenly authority to them which God chooses to be special witnesses. Those events also become recorded scripture--if the NT pattern is true.

What denomination are you claiming has had those experiences--with witnesses?

There is only one that I am aware of today--which is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Denial won't change what the scriptures testify to:

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

That is your assumption, dberrie.

I noticed you didn't provide the name of a single denomination which has experienced the heavenly events, as the NT church did, and also The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm referring to these kinds of events:

Matthew 17:1-5---King James Version
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Revelation 1:10-15---King James Version
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
 
I noticed you didn't provide the name of a single denomination which has experienced the heavenly events, as the NT church did, and also The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I'm referring to these kinds of events:

Matthew 17:1-5---King James Version
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Revelation 1:10-15---King James Version
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And in post #58 you must have sailed right by the Corinthian quote and the question I posed. Who were those unnamed special messengers (apostolos) in the Greek? You are hung up on having names of modern apostles. Well, they weren't all named in the NT either. You don't know what function apostles had evidently.
 
And in post #58 you must have sailed right by the Corinthian quote and the question I posed. Who were those unnamed special messengers (apostolos) in the Greek?

That isn't going to help you in naming what denominations experienced the heavenly revelations and visitations. That was a maxim of the NT church, which separated it from all other claims of heavenly authority and connection, as to the church. It's also what separates The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from all other denominations today.

Still waiting.

You are hung up on having names of modern apostles.

Not hung up on it--but one must be able to specifically identify them, if their claim of real, living, mortal apostles can be confirmed.

Here is the evidence of my claim:


The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

If you want their names--that can be supplied also, but that is easily accessed by any who should desire it.

Well, they weren't all named in the NT either.

But the NT church knew who they were--and their names.

Again--what are the names of the apostles you claim--which are living, mortal apostles today?
 
That isn't going to help you in naming what denominations experienced the heavenly revelations and visitations. That was a maxim of the NT church, which separated it from all other claims of heavenly authority and connection, as to the church. It's also what separates The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from all other denominations today.

Still waiting.



Not hung up on it--but one must be able to specifically identify them, if their claim of real, living, mortal apostles can be confirmed.

Here is the evidence of my claim:


The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

If you want their names--that can be supplied also, but that is easily accessed by any who should desire it.



But the NT church knew who they were--and their names.

Again--what are the names of the apostles you claim--which are living, mortal apostles today?
They weren't written down. The church was expanding. You fail to understand that.
 
They weren't written down.

I disagree:

Matthew 10:2-4---King James Version
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

The church was expanding. You fail to understand that.

And--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are now a world-wide church.

So--what denomination are you claiming has the twelve apostles--whith the heavenly manifestations, with witnesses--and recorded as scripture--as the NT church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have?

That's a standard which only God's church can provide--and which is missing in the denominations today, IMO.

If you disagree--then please provide us with the names and denominations.
 
I disagree:

Matthew 10:2-4---King James Version
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.



And--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are now a world-wide church.

So--what denomination are you claiming has the twelve apostles--whith the heavenly manifestations, with witnesses--and recorded as scripture--as the NT church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have?

That's a standard which only God's church can provide--and which is missing in the denominations today, IMO.

If you disagree--then please provide us with the names and denominations.
Your opinion is in error as is your understanding of the church which is not a monolithic institution, but rather a living, breathing organism that is world-wide with Jesus as its head. The church comprises many different "denominations" but are united under the headship of Jesus. The church is world-wide and yet local in its focus. When you understand that, you may actually understand Ephesians 4.
 
Back
Top