the real conspiracy theory is atheism.

SteveB

Well-known member
No, I did not claim that. Why do you constantly invent things that others haven't said


No, it's not. This "you have to wait..." is new for you. Of course, it's your comeback to the fact that many of us have done exactly what you have said...and got nothing.

No, that's not remotely the problem. But it's amusing to see you try to put your inability to evidence your beliefs on me.
Yet you offer nothing by which I should believe that.


Let's see...my philosophical view that claims need to be evidenced? Of course I did. And it worked out fine. It always works out fine until you get to unevidenced nonsense, like religion.
Strange. You have no problem working through this, but you can't work through the two questions below?
Seems like you're filled up with all kinds of biases and preconceptions that are all about your tiny world view.

Unsupported.
So is your statement.

I don't understand these questions. They seem to say the opposite thing.
One is asking about interaction between me, and another person, and you are not around to actually observe, and the other is about you and another. Both without my being there.
It's not that difficult a concept.

So, tell me something..... can I relate to another person, from who knows how many hundreds, or thousands of miles away from where you live, and you gain the benefit of that relationship?

How about you? Can you relate to another person, whom I've never met, or heard of before, and gain the benefit from the relationship you're enjoying?



Did it. For years. Got nothing.
Yet you keep refusing to describe the details of what that entailed, so you can be further understood.
I've long wondered why you would continue to do this. The only thing that actually makes any sense about this is that you didn't actually do that, and you don't want anyone to know what the truth is so you keep it hidden, so you won't find out that you were wrong about what you thought christianity is.

I would think that you could detail it quite easily, just so you could actually prove that you are right and I'm wrong.
But your ongoing silence about it looks like you did what you thought was christianity but in fact was not.
This is actually quite common an issue for people.

Did you spend time praying?
To whom did you pray?
Did you read the bible regularly? How many times did you read the bible from start to finish?
Did you engage in weekly meetings with others who were following Jesus?
Did you engage in conversation with other Jesus followers about the bible studies you engaged in?
Do you go out and talk to others about Jesus and the gospel? With topics such as sin, judgment, righteousness, repentance, forgiveness, the new birth, eternal life and death?
Did you engage in feeding the poor, visiting people in need, clothing the naked, helping people in need?
Or was it merely a cultural thing that didn't entail the bible, biblical activity, reading, prayer, church involvement, etc.?
These are pretty simply describable.

Experiences like this are what Jesus followers do.
 

Bob1

Active member
You have it backwards.
We don't HAVE truth, anymore than you can possess another human being.
Or are you one of those who believe you can possess another human being as if they were your property?
Jesus IS Truth.
We either follow him, and learn this, or not.
It's not that difficult a concept.
Prove your deity exists and is "truth".
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Yet you offer nothing by which I should believe that.
Just as you offer nothing by which I should believe anything you say.

Strange. You have no problem working through this, but you can't work through the two questions below?
Did you not read where I stated that I don't understand your questions?
Seems like you're filled up with all kinds of biases and preconceptions that are all about your tiny world view.
No, it doesn't seem like that. You might imagine it, but that's your problem.
One is asking about interaction between me, and another person, and you are not around to actually observe, and the other is about you and another. Both without my being there.
It's not that difficult a concept.

So, tell me something..... can I relate to another person, from who knows how many hundreds, or thousands of miles away from where you live, and you gain the benefit of that relationship?
No.
How about you? Can you relate to another person, whom I've never met, or heard of before, and gain the benefit from the relationship you're enjoying?
Yes.

Now please educate us on what those questions are supposed to mean.
Yet you keep refusing to describe the details of what that entailed, so you can be further understood.
Just as you keep refusing to describe the details of what we should do, so that you can be further understood.
I've long wondered why you would continue to do this.
That's pretty like you. You've been repeatedly told why I continue to do this, but you choose to ignore what I've said because it doesn't fit your narrative and invent something you like better.
The only thing that actually makes any sense about this is that you didn't actually do that, and you don't want anyone to know what the truth is so you keep it hidden, so you won't find out that you were wrong about what you thought christianity is.
Nope. That's not the only thing that actually makes any sense. Try actually reading and dealing with the reason I've repeated given you.
I would think that you could detail it quite easily, just so you could actually prove that you are right and I'm wrong.
Just like I would think that you could detail what we need to do quite easily. Yet you don't - and we all know why.
But your ongoing silence about it looks like you did what you thought was christianity but in fact was not.
No, it doesn't look like that at all. It looks exactly as it is, and the reason is exactly what has been already (repeatedly) given to you.
This is actually quite common an issue for people.

Did you spend time praying?
To whom did you pray?
Did you read the bible regularly? How many times did you read the bible from start to finish?
Did you engage in weekly meetings with others who were following Jesus?
Did you engage in conversation with other Jesus followers about the bible studies you engaged in?
Do you go out and talk to others about Jesus and the gospel? With topics such as sin, judgment, righteousness, repentance, forgiveness, the new birth, eternal life and death?
Did you engage in feeding the poor, visiting people in need, clothing the naked, helping people in need?
Or was it merely a cultural thing that didn't entail the bible, biblical activity, reading, prayer, church involvement, etc.?
These are pretty simply describable.

Experiences like this are what Jesus followers do.
Yup, Jesus, yup, so far 3 times, yup, yup, yup, yup, yup (but I didn't encounter many naked people), nop.
 

bigthinker

Active member
It's ironic that the bible says it's being without God.
Its not ironic, the bible is wrong about lots of things. Regardless terms and meanings change.
It also says such people are fools.
And I say fools are those who are gullible enough to believe the bible is true.
I've long found it curious that people think that their lack of belief is somehow superior, as though it makes you more erudite.
Well, I think it is superior as gullibility is not a desirable or useful trait.
To me, it just means you're ignorant of that which you don't want to know.
In my case I'm not ignorant. I deconverted from Christianity.
Especially in light of God's having said he'd give us the means to know him.
Which makes you doubly ignorant. So..... why on earth would you find that something to be proud of?
because I think you're the ignorant one. You believe something for which there is no actual, testable evidence. You reason only far enough to confirm your bias but no further. That's the foundation of ignorance. Now, I'm sure you'll disagree but even if you give an example of why that isn't the case, it won't actually support your position. And if you don't give an example it'll just be excuses -like the excuse that God said he'd give us the means to know him. Its an excuse -you can't actually make the case that your God exists outside of your imagination.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Its not ironic, the bible is wrong about lots of things. Regardless terms and meanings change.
yet you're not able to provide all those things the bible is wrong about.
When someone who's never actually studied the bible, done what the bible says, says that the bible is wrong, this describes to me an individual who is ignorant of the bible, but likes to use such claims to sidfe-step the issues the bible presents to them--- they're under condemnation for their sin, and will face judgment, unless they turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus.


And I say fools are those who are gullible enough to believe the bible is true.
People who never do what the bible says, to learn for themselves, I'd agree.
Jesus calls such people foolish.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

What strikes me is t hat while Jesus calls such people FOOLISH, the bible says that person who says there is no God, is a FOOL.
Thus, it seems to me that God himself a distinction.
It's one thing to act foolishly. It's another altogether to be a fool.

I'd add the same thing about people who claim that science, biology, chemistry, physics, math, computer programming, engineering, etc.... are all true, but have never once done them to know for themselves t he truthfulness of these disciplines/endeavors.



Well, I think it is superior as gullibility is not a desirable or useful trait.
I've never seen where gullibility is beneficial.
I have however noticed that a lot of atheists talk about science, as though its real, but have never once actually done or studied such matters. that seems rather gullible to me.
So..... why would you apply it to what you disdain to learn because you don't know, but then praise what you disdain to learn because you don't know?
Don't you think that's hypocritical? Because it sure strikes me as hypocritical.
So... if you want to claim this, then you need to do the same with everything else you've never actually become educated in.


In my case I'm not ignorant. I deconverted from Christianity.
So, you were never actually a follower of Jesus?
I left "christianity" as an 11-12 year old. Actually, I just stopped going to church, because I never believed it in the first place.
I then met Jesus when I was 17.

So, you "deconverting from christianity".... this just tells me you left an idea, and a community of people with whom you never agreed with in the first place.

because I think you're the ignorant one.
I'm sure you do. You're the one who quit church.
I'm following Jesus.
the curious thing is--- he never said--- if you quit, you will know t he truth, and the truth will set you free.

He said--- if you continue in MY teachings, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

So.... I'm curious.... if I were to try to repair my wife's car, and I took the time to watch the appropriate videos, read the appropriate manuals, etc... relating to the work needing to be done, but after having cracked my knuckles on bolt, with t he wrench, so I stopped the work of repairing her car.... and t hen claim--- yeah. I just never could learn what I needed to fix her car. Too much stuff. Too...... blah, blah, blah.....
Would I in fact have learned what was needed to actually fix her car?

Seems to me that while I had all the necessary information, my quitting is what prevented me from learning the truth. Regardless of whether I cracked a knuckle between a wrench and the bolt, or my head on the hood. I'd have quit.

Thankfully, I have not quit. I did repair her car.... numerous times over the course of the past 30 years. As well as my own cars/trucks.

And I have knocked my head against the hoods, cracked my knuckles on bolts, heads, exhaust pipes, etc....
I've gotten lots of splinters in pieces of fence wood, scraped my knuckles on concrete....
Quitting is never how you learn.


You believe something for which there is no actual, testable evidence.
Well, for someone who quit, I'd have to agree with you.
Quitters don't stick around long enough to see the evidence.
I've heard copious stories over the years of people who went up into the mountains, looking for gold, but never found it. People all around them were walking away with nuggets, and dust,, but they never found squat. They finally quit, only to have the next guy move 3 inches over from their previous spot, and find a 3 ounce nugget. Same with gamblers. I've heard copious stories with gamblers, who spent hundreds of dollars on the slot machines in the casinos, never to win a single penny, walk away, and someone sits down at their seat, drop in a dollar, and win the mega jackpot.

So.... the evidence is there. You quitting prevented you from finding it.
So. telling me there's no evidence.... you're incredibly lazy.
It's been there for millennia.
You just failed to look in the right area.

The good news is--- there's still time for you to return to God, and follow Jesus.
Don't follow the church's idea of JEsus, but the Jesus who is described in the bible.

In Jeremiah 1:10, it says that God had called JEremiah to

9 Then the LORD put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me:
“Behold, I have put My words in your mouth. 10 See, I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, To root out and to pull down,
To destroy and to throw down, To build and to plant.”


One of the problems I've seen quite frequently is that people have to go through the process of having their false ideas rooted out, pulled down, destroyed, and thrown down. That's not an easy process, because it requires time to do so.
A lot of people are not willing to have their most cherished preconceptions stripped away from them.
Or had you never wondered why Jesus said--- If anyone WANTS to be my disciple, they MUST deny themselves, and pick up t heir cross daily. ?
It's a matter of letting go of what we think, and confronting the Truth--- who IS Jesus.

So..... that you quit church..... not even remotely surprising. A lot of people do it. Jesus further described this in Matthew 13--- the guy who's seed fell on the rocky soil. Things were all kopasthetic until they got too hard. then he quit.

You reason only far enough to confirm your bias but no further.
So..... reasoning that doesn't fit your bias isn't reasoning?
Curious how that works.
How're your knuckles?
Got any splinters lately?


That's the foundation of ignorance.
Indeed. You quit church. Apparently, from your own description, you never actually met Jesus.


Now, I'm sure you'll disagree but even if you give an example of why that isn't the case, it won't actually support your position.
Yeah, and had I not had so many scars from actually living out the examples I'd provided you with above, I'd agree with you.
But telling me that such experiences won't support "my position", that's like telling me--- no matter what you say, you're a liar, and cannot be right, regardless of what the truth is.
So.... congratulations. You've just demonstrated to me that it's you who is indeed biased, ignorant, and happy being so.

And if you don't give an example it'll just be excuses -like the excuse that God said he'd give us the means to know him. Its an excuse -you can't actually make the case that your God exists outside of your imagination.
Oh, I think I provided plenty of examples above.
Why not tell me your examples.
 

bigthinker

Active member
yet you're not able to provide all those things the bible is wrong about.
This is a good starting point:

Here's the thing, you aren't able to have an honest discussion. You can't deal with what I have to say on its own terms -probably because it completely destroys your position -even though you're too arrogant to realize that. No, you create a strawman and argue against that because that's all you know. Your worldview is so fragile that it prevents you from being able to deal with anything that doesn't align with your presuppositions, biases, beliefs etc. You must find comfort in them.

My point is that you have nothing, you have no evidence that anything you believe is actually true outside of your beliefs. And that's all you have, just a sad little pile of beliefs, prejudices, biases etc.

You can disagree all you want but it is clear you have nothing to offer.

edit: you also have your stories; stories that justify your beliefs and biases to yourself. And you repeat them often ...which may be more for your benefit than for anyone else's. I know they're meaningless to me. And obviously you don't understand that -probably too busy telling yourself your story again to pay attention to much else.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
This is a good starting point:
Interesting.
I have a bible app that has over 100 translations and I have Hebrew and Greek parallel versions, so the translation options allows me to see the words.
A number of this guy's complaints, I'm not seeing what he's claiming.
I see what appears to be colloquial variations, but anyone who has ever traveled around can readily see that these are not translational problems.

For the pure Hebrew or and greek versions, I can see the lettering is the same as the parallel versions.
So your source is going to have to do better than what he's got.
If you're an android user, I'll give you the app name and you can download it yourself to do your own investigation.


Here's the thing, you aren't able to have an honest discussion. You can't deal with what I have to say on its own terms -probably because it completely destroys your position -even though you're too arrogant to realize that. No, you create a strawman and argue against that because that's all you know. Your worldview is so fragile that it prevents you from being able to deal with anything that doesn't align with your presuppositions, biases, beliefs etc. You must find comfort in them.

My point is that you have nothing, you have no evidence that anything you believe is actually true outside of your beliefs. And that's all you have, just a sad little pile of beliefs, prejudices, biases etc.

You can disagree all you want but it is clear you have nothing to offer.

edit: you also have your stories; stories that justify your beliefs and biases to yourself. And you repeat them often ...which may be more for your benefit than for anyone else's. I know they're meaningless to me. And obviously you don't understand that -probably too busy telling yourself your story again to pay attention to much else.
All this said...

Have you actually vetted your source or did you just go digging it up on the spur of the moment?

Looking over the bibliography, I see some website addresses that I haven't seen in 16 years.

I further see that it's a very biased collection of data. Seems that if you're going to use this, and have it be considered to be unbiased, you'd want a more balanced approach.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
This is a good starting point:

Here's the thing, you aren't able to have an honest discussion. You can't deal with what I have to say on its own terms -probably because it completely destroys your position -even though you're too arrogant to realize that. No, you create a strawman and argue against that because that's all you know. Your worldview is so fragile that it prevents you from being able to deal with anything that doesn't align with your presuppositions, biases, beliefs etc. You must find comfort in them.

My point is that you have nothing, you have no evidence that anything you believe is actually true outside of your beliefs. And that's all you have, just a sad little pile of beliefs, prejudices, biases etc.

You can disagree all you want but it is clear you have nothing to offer.

edit: you also have your stories; stories that justify your beliefs and biases to yourself. And you repeat them often ...which may be more for your benefit than for anyone else's. I know they're meaningless to me. And obviously you don't understand that -probably too busy telling yourself your story again to pay attention to much else.
Well, further examination of Daniel Henson's work brings numerous articles to bear.

Please tell me you actually vetted this guy. I'm finding responses to his stuff dating back to at least 2012.

Do yourself a favor and vet him before you bring him into this discussion.

It's not looking very good for him right now.

I have downloaded the Dossier of Reason

Here's an 8 year old response.


Another article. Looks like a debate with his materials.

The supporter of his views bailed.
It never was finished. It's from 2018.


Looking further into this guy, he's flat out disappeared. He's not on any atheist sites, nor LinkedIn or any other site where he can be vetted.

It would be ironic if he had returned to following Jesus.

I suppose I could ask him.

This Daniel Henson is a pastor of a Baptist church in Oklahoma, and the asst fire chief. He's quite educated.

Do you have any history on your Daniel Henson? A city he lived in at the time all his past happened in?
 

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SteveB

Well-known member
This is a good starting point:

Here's the thing, you aren't able to have an honest discussion. You can't deal with what I have to say on its own terms -probably because it completely destroys your position -even though you're too arrogant to realize that. No, you create a strawman and argue against that because that's all you know. Your worldview is so fragile that it prevents you from being able to deal with anything that doesn't align with your presuppositions, biases, beliefs etc. You must find comfort in them.

My point is that you have nothing, you have no evidence that anything you believe is actually true outside of your beliefs. And that's all you have, just a sad little pile of beliefs, prejudices, biases etc.

You can disagree all you want but it is clear you have nothing to offer.

edit: you also have your stories; stories that justify your beliefs and biases to yourself. And you repeat them often ...which may be more for your benefit than for anyone else's. I know they're meaningless to me. And obviously you don't understand that -probably too busy telling yourself your story again to pay attention to much else.
Well, digging further into this dossier of reason article I'm finding websites that no longer exist, servers which have been abandoned, pages no longer in existence.
And ones that are in existence, over 16 years ago.

So, just where did you find this?

I did contact the Daniel Henson I found that is a pastor in Oklahoma. I'll let you know if he responds. If it is him, and he is willing to work through this article of his, are you ready to commit to deal with this or will you bail?
Turns out that this guy has a blog dating back to 2010.

It seems to me that if it is the same person, his being an active pastor pretty much kills your entire purpose in posting it because he had previously worked through all the problems he'd had.
 

bigthinker

Active member
Well, digging further into this dossier of reason article I'm finding websites that no longer exist, servers which have been abandoned, pages no longer in existence.
And ones that are in existence, over 16 years ago.

So, just where did you find this?

I did contact the Daniel Henson I found that is a pastor in Oklahoma. I'll let you know if he responds. If it is him, and he is willing to work through this article of his, are you ready to commit to deal with this or will you bail?
Turns out that this guy has a blog dating back to 2010.

It seems to me that if it is the same person, his being an active pastor pretty much kills your entire purpose in posting it because he had previously worked through all the problems he'd had.
Absolutely.
But first demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination and then we can move forward.
My position is that your God and your Jesus exist in your imagination and that you cannot demonstrate otherwise -and so far you have not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, your acceptance of the Bible is predicated on your belief that God and Jesus exist? Or is your faith first in the Bible and as a result of your faith in the bible, you have reached the conclusion that God and Jesus exist?
 

bigthinker

Active member
Well, further examination of Daniel Henson's work brings numerous articles to bear.

Please tell me you actually vetted this guy. I'm finding responses to his stuff dating back to at least 2012.

Do yourself a favor and vet him before you bring him into this discussion.

It's not looking very good for him right now.

I have downloaded the Dossier of Reason

Here's an 8 year old response.


Another article. Looks like a debate with his materials.

The supporter of his views bailed.
It never was finished. It's from 2018.


Looking further into this guy, he's flat out disappeared. He's not on any atheist sites, nor LinkedIn or any other site where he can be vetted.

It would be ironic if he had returned to following Jesus.

I suppose I could ask him.

This Daniel Henson is a pastor of a Baptist church in Oklahoma, and the asst fire chief. He's quite educated.

Do you have any history on your Daniel Henson? A city he lived in at the time all his past happened in?
I see you're more interested in discrediting the author than in addressing the material.
So I'm fine if you want to just pick a few from this list. These are reasons for rejecting the bible.
The actual list is much longer but in order to not violate any copy/pasting large amounts of text, I'm fine if you want to just start here -pick a couple that you feel you can defend and we can see if you can make a reasonable case.
Depending on how that goes, I can always find more -there's plenty to choose from.

*I deliberately did not provide the link so you won't be distracted and attempt to somehow discredit the source as opposed to the actual points.


Contradictions

The Bible is an unreliable authority because it contains numerous contradictions. Logically, if two statements are contradictory, at least one of them is false. The biblical contradictions therefore prove that the book has many false statements and is not infallible.​

Examples of Old Testament Contradictions​

The contradictions start in the opening chapters of the Bible, where inconsistent creation stories are told. Genesis chapter 1 says the first man and woman were made at the same time, and after the animals. But Genesis chapter 2 gives a different order of creation: man, then the animals, and then woman.

Genesis chapter 1 lists six days of creation, whereas chapter 2 refers to the “day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.” Genesis 1:2-3 claims that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day; but Genesis 1:14-19 tells us the sun, moon, and stars weren’t made until the fourth day.

Chapter 1 reports that the fruit trees were created before the man, while chapter 2 indicates they were made after him. Genesis 1:20 says the fowl were created out of the waters; Genesis 2:19 alleges they were formed from the ground.

Contradictions are also seen in the biblical story of a worldwide flood. According to Genesis 6:19-22, God ordered Noah to bring “of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark.” Nevertheless, Genesis 7:2-3 relates that the Lord ordered Noah to take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens, and only the unclean beasts by twos.

Genesis 8:4 reports that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noah’s ark rested on the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month. The very next verse, however, says the mountaintops could not be seen until the tenth month.

Genesis 8:13 describes the earth as being dry on the first day of the first month. But Genesis 8:14 informs us the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.

The Old Testament contains an interesting contradiction in the story of the census taken by King David and the resulting punishment of the Israelites. God was so angered by the census that he sent a plague that killed 70,000 men. According to II Samuel 24:1, the Lord had caused David to take the census – which makes the punishment appear even more nonsensical. But an attempt was later made, at I Chronicles 21:1, to improve God’s image by claiming that Satan incited the census.

Further, the Old Testament is contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. At Jeremiah 7:22, God denies he ever gave the Israelites commandments about animal sacrifices. In contrast, Exodus 29:38-42 and many other verses depict God as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.​

Examples of New Testament Contradictions​

In the New Testament, there are contradictions between the genealogies of Jesus given in the first chapter of Matthew and the third chapter of Luke.

Both genealogies begin with Jesus’ father, who is identified as Joseph (which is curious, given that Mary was supposedly impregnated by the Holy Ghost). But Matthew says Joseph’s father was Jacob, while Luke claims he was Heli. Matthew lists 26 generations between Jesus and King David, whereas Luke records 41. Matthew runs Jesus’ line of descent through David’s son Solomon, while Luke has it going through David’s son Nathan.

The story of Jesus’ birth is also contradictory. Matthew 2:13-15 depicts Joseph and Mary as fleeing to Egypt with the baby Jesus immediately after the wise men from the east had brought gifts.

But Luke 2:22-40 claims that after the birth of Jesus, his parents remained in Bethlehem for the time of Mary’s purification (which was 40 days, under the Mosaic law). Afterwards, they brought Jesus to Jerusalem “to present him to the Lord,” and then returned to their home in Nazareth. Luke mentions no journey into Egypt or visit by wise men from the east.

Concerning the death of Judas, the disloyal disciple, Matthew 27:5 states he took the money he had received for betraying Jesus, threw it down in the temple, and “went and hanged himself.” To the contrary, Acts 1:18 claims Judas used the money to purchase a field and “falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

In describing Jesus being led to his execution, John 19:17 recounts that he carried his own cross. But Mark 15:21-23 disagrees by saying a man called Simon carried the cross.

As for the crucifixion, Matthew 27:44 tells us Jesus was taunted by both criminals who were being crucified with him. But Luke 23:39-43 relates that only one of the criminals taunted Jesus, the other criminal rebuked the one who was doing the taunting, and Jesus told the criminal who was defending him, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

Regarding the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 quote Jesus as crying with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Luke 23:46 gives his final words as, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” John 19:30 alleges the last words were, “It is finished.”

There are even contradictions in the accounts of the resurrection – the supposed event that is the very foundation of the Christian religion. Mark 16:2 states that on the day of the resurrection, certain women arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun. But John 20:1 informs us they arrived when it was yet dark. Luke 24:2 describes the tomb as open when the women arrived, whereas Matthew 28:1-2 indicates it was closed. Mark 16:5 declares that the women saw a young man at the tomb, Luke 24:4 says they saw two men, Matthew 28:2 reports they saw an angel, and John 20:11-12 claims they saw two angels.

Also in the resurrection stories, there are contradictions as to the identity of the women who came to the tomb,[7] whether the men or angels the women saw were inside or outside the tomb,[8] whether the men or angels were standing or sitting,[9] and whether Mary Magdalene recognized the risen Jesus when he first appeared to her.[10]

As a final example of a New Testament contradiction, the conflicting accounts of Paul’s conversion can be cited. Acts 9:7 states that when Jesus called Paul to preach the gospel, the men who were with Paul heard a voice but saw no man. According to Acts 22:9, however, the men saw a light but didn’t hear the voice speaking to Paul.

The foregoing examples are just a few of the hundreds of contradictions contained in the Old and New Testaments. Each contradiction is an instance where at least one of the verses is wrong. Thus, hundreds of contradictions mean there are at least hundreds of incorrect statements in the Bible.​




 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Absolutely.
But first demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination and then we can move forward.
My position is that your God and your Jesus exist in your imagination and that you cannot demonstrate otherwise -and so far you have not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, your acceptance of the Bible is predicated on your belief that God and Jesus exist? Or is your faith first in the Bible and as a result of your faith in the bible, you have reached the conclusion that God and Jesus exist?
He's been doing this for everyone who comes to him with a whole heart for the past several thousand years.

As Jesus said,

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

If you're not willing to do this, what makes you think you would ever be able to actually understand and know?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I see you're more interested in discrediting the author than in addressing the material.
So I'm fine if you want to just pick a few from this list. These are reasons for rejecting the bible.
The actual list is much longer but in order to not violate any copy/pasting large amounts of text, I'm fine if you want to just start here -pick a couple that you feel you can defend and we can see if you can make a reasonable case.
Depending on how that goes, I can always find more -there's plenty to choose from.

*I deliberately did not provide the link so you won't be distracted and attempt to somehow discredit the source as opposed to the actual points.


Contradictions

The Bible is an unreliable authority because it contains numerous contradictions. Logically, if two statements are contradictory, at least one of them is false. The biblical contradictions therefore prove that the book has many false statements and is not infallible.​

Examples of Old Testament Contradictions​

The contradictions start in the opening chapters of the Bible, where inconsistent creation stories are told. Genesis chapter 1 says the first man and woman were made at the same time, and after the animals. But Genesis chapter 2 gives a different order of creation: man, then the animals, and then woman.

Genesis chapter 1 lists six days of creation, whereas chapter 2 refers to the “day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.” Genesis 1:2-3 claims that God created light and divided it from darkness on the first day; but Genesis 1:14-19 tells us the sun, moon, and stars weren’t made until the fourth day.

Chapter 1 reports that the fruit trees were created before the man, while chapter 2 indicates they were made after him. Genesis 1:20 says the fowl were created out of the waters; Genesis 2:19 alleges they were formed from the ground.

Contradictions are also seen in the biblical story of a worldwide flood. According to Genesis 6:19-22, God ordered Noah to bring “of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark.” Nevertheless, Genesis 7:2-3 relates that the Lord ordered Noah to take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens, and only the unclean beasts by twos.

Genesis 8:4 reports that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noah’s ark rested on the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month. The very next verse, however, says the mountaintops could not be seen until the tenth month.

Genesis 8:13 describes the earth as being dry on the first day of the first month. But Genesis 8:14 informs us the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.

The Old Testament contains an interesting contradiction in the story of the census taken by King David and the resulting punishment of the Israelites. God was so angered by the census that he sent a plague that killed 70,000 men. According to II Samuel 24:1, the Lord had caused David to take the census – which makes the punishment appear even more nonsensical. But an attempt was later made, at I Chronicles 21:1, to improve God’s image by claiming that Satan incited the census.

Further, the Old Testament is contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. At Jeremiah 7:22, God denies he ever gave the Israelites commandments about animal sacrifices. In contrast, Exodus 29:38-42 and many other verses depict God as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.​

Examples of New Testament Contradictions​

In the New Testament, there are contradictions between the genealogies of Jesus given in the first chapter of Matthew and the third chapter of Luke.

Both genealogies begin with Jesus’ father, who is identified as Joseph (which is curious, given that Mary was supposedly impregnated by the Holy Ghost). But Matthew says Joseph’s father was Jacob, while Luke claims he was Heli. Matthew lists 26 generations between Jesus and King David, whereas Luke records 41. Matthew runs Jesus’ line of descent through David’s son Solomon, while Luke has it going through David’s son Nathan.

The story of Jesus’ birth is also contradictory. Matthew 2:13-15 depicts Joseph and Mary as fleeing to Egypt with the baby Jesus immediately after the wise men from the east had brought gifts.

But Luke 2:22-40 claims that after the birth of Jesus, his parents remained in Bethlehem for the time of Mary’s purification (which was 40 days, under the Mosaic law). Afterwards, they brought Jesus to Jerusalem “to present him to the Lord,” and then returned to their home in Nazareth. Luke mentions no journey into Egypt or visit by wise men from the east.

Concerning the death of Judas, the disloyal disciple, Matthew 27:5 states he took the money he had received for betraying Jesus, threw it down in the temple, and “went and hanged himself.” To the contrary, Acts 1:18 claims Judas used the money to purchase a field and “falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

In describing Jesus being led to his execution, John 19:17 recounts that he carried his own cross. But Mark 15:21-23 disagrees by saying a man called Simon carried the cross.

As for the crucifixion, Matthew 27:44 tells us Jesus was taunted by both criminals who were being crucified with him. But Luke 23:39-43 relates that only one of the criminals taunted Jesus, the other criminal rebuked the one who was doing the taunting, and Jesus told the criminal who was defending him, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

Regarding the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 quote Jesus as crying with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Luke 23:46 gives his final words as, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” John 19:30 alleges the last words were, “It is finished.”

There are even contradictions in the accounts of the resurrection – the supposed event that is the very foundation of the Christian religion. Mark 16:2 states that on the day of the resurrection, certain women arrived at the tomb at the rising of the sun. But John 20:1 informs us they arrived when it was yet dark. Luke 24:2 describes the tomb as open when the women arrived, whereas Matthew 28:1-2 indicates it was closed. Mark 16:5 declares that the women saw a young man at the tomb, Luke 24:4 says they saw two men, Matthew 28:2 reports they saw an angel, and John 20:11-12 claims they saw two angels.

Also in the resurrection stories, there are contradictions as to the identity of the women who came to the tomb,[7] whether the men or angels the women saw were inside or outside the tomb,[8] whether the men or angels were standing or sitting,[9] and whether Mary Magdalene recognized the risen Jesus when he first appeared to her.[10]

As a final example of a New Testament contradiction, the conflicting accounts of Paul’s conversion can be cited. Acts 9:7 states that when Jesus called Paul to preach the gospel, the men who were with Paul heard a voice but saw no man. According to Acts 22:9, however, the men saw a light but didn’t hear the voice speaking to Paul.

The foregoing examples are just a few of the hundreds of contradictions contained in the Old and New Testaments. Each contradiction is an instance where at least one of the verses is wrong. Thus, hundreds of contradictions mean there are at least hundreds of incorrect statements in the Bible.​




I'm not the one who selected a seriously dated resource.

nor am I the one who is seeking to discredit the 40 authors, who wrote the bible and the hundreds of millions of people who have met God and Jesus and are and have been following Jesus for millennia.

So, if all you're interested in is discrediting us, why wouldn't we examine your complaints only to find them irrationally wrong and biased?

Or maybe you don't actually realize that what you want to apply to us actually applies to you as well.
 

bigthinker

Active member
I'm not the one who selected a seriously dated resource.
As if that matters.
nor am I the one who is seeking to discredit the 40 authors, who wrote the bible and the hundreds of millions of people who have met God and Jesus and are and have been following Jesus for millennia.
Prove millions of people have met God and Jesus -and don't just believe they have.
So, if all you're interested in is discrediting us
I'm not. I'm waiting for someone to give credence to your beliefs.
, why wouldn't we examine your complaints only to find them irrationally wrong and biased?
My complaint is that you cannot demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination. Go ahead and examine that.
 
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