The real issue is .......

Carbon

Well-known member
The doctrine most Arminians seem to have issue with is Limited Atonement. This is also why some claim to be 4 point Calvinists. I had an issue with this myself.

However, I believe the real issue is the doctrine of Total Depravity. Or, if you prefer, Total Inability.

Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation. This is a clear indication that they do not understand the fall and total depravity. Therefore, they do not even understand themselves.
Furthermore, since they believe man is born with just enough natural faith, how could limited atonement be true. If man has the ability, then potentially everyone can be saved. Therefore, limited atonement is false.

Due to the trespass and the fall, numerous sinful and painful miseries have resulted.

1) Man was immediately depraved of the image of God.
2) Man was conscience of shame. Due to the shame of being naked they wouldn’t go near God.
3) their conscience was terrified. They became conscious of comitting sin. The presence of God gave them joy, but now it caused them fear so they hid.
4) Adam manifested a sinful self love by seeking to excuse himself, he even accused his wife Eve.

Now man is subject to death.
God told them if they eat of it they shall die.
A lot happened, the ground was cursed, etc...

They broke the covenant and God announced the covenant of grace.

As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual things. Their minds are darkened by sin, and their hearts are corrupt and evil.


For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mark 7.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8.

That’s a great fall. The whole of mans being has been affected by sin. This corruption extends to every part of man, body, soul, it’s all effected by sin, his mind, his will, etc.

If the free willers understood mans corruption, limited atonement (and the other doctrines of grace) would make perfect sense.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
It stems from a faulty view of the fall of man. In their eyes(classical Arminians do believe in Total Depravity and those dead in their sins and transgressions do need prevenient grace to enable them to respond favorably, but prevenient grace does not necessarily lead to salvation as they can reject it and remain lost) man is not truly dead, but walking around wounded in Adam and not dead in Adam. There are very few classical Arminians left as most who fall into the non-Calvinist camp are either semi-Pelagians or full blown Pelagianists. These are the ones we deal with on here on a daily basis.

Look at Ezekiel 37:1-10 for instance. Here Ezekiel is taken in a vision to a valley of dried up bones. I'd venture to say they were sun-bleached, as there was nothing left of these men who died, and even the fowls of the air and beasts of the field have taken every bit of flesh from them. God then asks him “Son of man, can these bones live?”[vs 3] What an odd question to ask. Here are nothing more than dried bones strewn all over the place, cut off from life with no hope within themselves of ever living again. Ezekiel then gives a very prudent answer “O Lord GOD, You know.”[vs 3] Ezekiel knew enough of His God that there was nothing than He could not, no matter how dire the circumstances looked. God then tells him to do something that seemed odd “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.’[vs 4] Wait! What? What about this "God will not command us to do what He knows we cannot do!"?? God commanded a valley full of dried up bones to hear the word of the LORD! But how can they, seeing they are dead? Shoot, they do not even have any ears to hear with, as there was nothing left on the skull, as their ears had either rotted off or had been eaten by the birds and/or beasts. Yet, God commanded these bones to hear the word of the LORD. Then this happened So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them;[vss 7-8]. Notice that as Ezekiel prophesied, these things took place. This was all God's doing. As Ezekiel spoke what God commanded him to say these things took place. But there was a problem but there was no breath in them.[vs 8] All of this took place but they were still dead. It took this to bring them to life “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.[vss 9-10]

Notice the sequence of how this transpired.

They were dead w/o any hope of ever living again in their dead condition.
As Ezekiel spoke what God commanded him to say, bone came to its bone, then sinews, and then flesh covered their bodies.
As Ezekiel further spoke what God told him to say, the wind blew upon them(a symbol of the Spirit moving in John 3:8) and they came to life and stood upon their feet.

This is a symbol of the gospel. As we witness the gospel to the lost, God moves upon His elect and they come to life and respond with faith and repentance and are saved.
 

civic

Well-known member
TD and LA are tough pills to swallow for the natural man. Our fallen human nature cries out like Paul says in Romans 10 against this and accuses God that He is not fair and it s unjust when in reality all men deserve His wrath, judgment and hell.

Arminius was onboard with TD but not LA. I think of all the 5 points LA is the hardest to come to grips with doctrinally.

We like to say the atonement is sufficient for all (all men-the whole world)but efficient for some (the elect-those predestined).
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
JStone used to Post here, and he said Prevenient Grace turns people into Semi-Pelagians; or these days it turns people into Provisionists, people who are neutral. If I've learned anything at CARM Forums, that's it. He presented the point as if Arminians are Provisionists with a loophole; people with a useless Appendix known as Total Depravity. Think about it; if all people become Totally Able, people were never Totally Unable to the point their Inability ever really counted. In Arminianism, Total Depravity has an asterisk next to it, and when you read the notation; it says no one is Totally Depraved...
 
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Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The doctrine most Arminians seem to have issue with is Limited Atonement. This is also why some claim to be 4 point Calvinists. I had an issue with this myself.

However, I believe the real issue is the doctrine of Total Depravity. Or, if you prefer, Total Inability.

Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation. This is a clear indication that they do not understand the fall and total depravity. Therefore, they do not even understand themselves.
Furthermore, since they believe man is born with just enough natural faith, how could limited atonement be true. If man has the ability, then potentially everyone can be saved. Therefore, limited atonement is false.

Due to the trespass and the fall, numerous sinful and painful miseries have resulted.

1) Man was immediately depraved of the image of God.
2) Man was conscience of shame. Due to the shame of being naked they wouldn’t go near God.
3) their conscience was terrified. They became conscious of comitting sin. The presence of God gave them joy, but now it caused them fear so they hid.
4) Adam manifested a sinful self love by seeking to excuse himself, he even accused his wife Eve.

Now man is subject to death.
God told them if they eat of it they shall die.
A lot happened, the ground was cursed, etc...

They broke the covenant and God announced the covenant of grace.

As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual things. Their minds are darkened by sin, and their hearts are corrupt and evil.


For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mark 7.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8.

That’s a great fall. The whole of mans being has been affected by sin. This corruption extends to every part of man, body, soul, it’s all effected by sin, his mind, his will, etc.

If the free willers understood mans corruption, limited atonement (and the other doctrines of grace) would make perfect sense.

Your entire post is based on a false premise and contains the odour of Gnosticism.

No human is unable to die. In fact, men are exceptional at dying and that's what God calls men to do - one single thing - die together with Christ.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Your entire post is based on a false premise and contains the odour of Gnosticism.

No human is unable to die. In fact, men are exceptional at dying and that's what God calls men to do - one single thing - die together with Christ.
The only way that we should get it out is the only way you that will have the same thing to say to me and you know what I do for the next time I have no one to say that you are going through all of your the hall that I have no reason why not to say anything about it
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The only way that we should get it out is the only way you that will have the same thing to say to me and you know what I do for the next time I have no one to say that you are going through all of your the hall that I have no reason why not to say anything about it

Was that some kind of code?
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
However, I believe the real issue is the doctrine of Total Depravity. Or, if you prefer, Total Inability.
Arminians believe that, in and of themselves, we are totally unable to do anything spiritually good and/or effective/effectual. The are two ways in which we differ, however.

First, God's gracious and Prevenient grace mitigates the effects of the sinful nature in many ways, including overcoming man's blindness to see the reality of his condition in relation to God.

Secondly, our true inability is not from just an inability to act morally because of sin, but the fact that God is the only one who can choose to restore the relationship between God and man. God is the offended party, thus even if man was hypothetically able to comprehend and desire restoration with God, God has no obligation to respond to man. Everything that happens in the restoration of man is because of grace. Nothing that man does is by his own right or ability. Everything related to effectual reconciliation of relationship is by grace through faith!







Due to the trespass and the fall, numerous sinful and painful miseries have resulted.
I like your phrasing here...

1) Man was immediately depraved of the image of God.
If by "depraved of" you mean that the image of God is non-existent, then you are incorrect!


2) Man was conscience of shame. Due to the shame of being naked they wouldn’t go near God.
3) their conscience was terrified. They became conscious of comitting sin. The presence of God gave them joy, but now it caused them fear so they hid.
4) Adam manifested a sinful self love by seeking to excuse himself, he even accused his wife Eve.
Agreed!
Now man is subject to death.
God told them if they eat of it they shall die.
Warning of God was that "in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die", heroes not say " you will surely begin to die", or that "death will eventually occur". In fact, God had to remove them from the garden for one reason, "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” physical death was not the future of man because of Adam's sin, or else there would have been no reason to keep them from the Tree of life. Death was spiritual death, and it happened the moment Adam bit into the fruit of the tree, whatever it was.



A lot happened, the ground was cursed, etc...
Yes it did...
As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual things. Their minds are darkened by sin, and their hearts are corrupt and evil.
This is true, but blind and deaf are not the same as being dead. The only thing that is needed to take away darkness is light, "the light of all mankind". (John 1:4, 5)
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mark 7.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8.

When was the last time you saw anything proceed from a dead man? What kind of desires do dead men have?
Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation.
Nothing could be further from the truth, and if you had actually studied what those such as me believe, we could have much better conversations!


Doug
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
In short, the unregenerate man is “dead in sin,” and his will is enslaved to his evil nature.
This is incredibly depressing, no? I'm trying to get the gospel message, but within this context of being dead in sin, it seem hopeless. Dead people cannot rouse themselves to hear the gospel.

This is all the more hopeless considering that your arguments are understandable, coherent, and logically consistent.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Arminians believe that, in and of themselves, we are totally unable to do anything spiritually good and/or effective/effectual. The are two ways in which we differ, however.
I think you just don’t see it. But Arminians are relying on their natural self.
So they believe in and of themselves they desire Christ?
First, God's gracious and Prevenient grace mitigates the effects of the sinful nature in many ways, including overcoming man's blindness to see the reality of his condition in relation to God.
So, Prevenient grace gets rid of fallen mans condition? It enables man to have a desire for Christ, it enables them to become God seekers and they seek Him until salvation. So basically it partially restores man?
Secondly, our true inability is not from just an inability to act morally because of sin, but the fact that God is the only one who can choose to restore the relationship between God and man. God is the offended party, thus even if man was hypothetically able to comprehend and desire restoration with God, God has no obligation to respond to man. Everything that happens in the restoration of man is because of grace. Nothing that man does is by his own right or ability. Everything related to effectual reconciliation of relationship is by grace through
If that were so, why even take man out of his dead state of ignorance in the first place?
So Prevenient grace goes to all, and some God may just ignore and not save? Even though Prevenient grace brought this person out of the spiritually dead state and enabled him to choose Christ?
Wow that’s a seriously messed up belief.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
This is incredibly depressing, no? I'm trying to get the gospel message, but within this context of being dead in sin, it seem hopeless. Dead people cannot rouse themselves to hear the gospel.

This is all the more hopeless considering that your arguments are understandable, coherent, and logically consistent.
With God all things are possible.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I think you just don’t see it. But Arminians are relying on their natural self.
So they believe in and of themselves they desire Christ?

So, Prevenient grace gets rid of fallen mans condition? It enables man to have a desire for Christ, it enables them to become God seekers and they seek Him until salvation. So basically it partially restores man?

If that were so, why even take man out of his dead state of ignorance in the first place?
So Prevenient grace goes to all, and some God may just ignore and not save? Even though Prevenient grace brought this person out of the spiritually dead state and enabled him to choose Christ?
Wow that’s a seriously messed up belief.
JStone used to Post here, and he said Prevenient Grace turns people into Semi-Pelagians; or these days it turns people into Provisionists, people who are neutral. If I've learned anything at CARM Forums, that's it. He presented the point as if Arminians are Provisionists with a loophole; people with a useless Appendix known as Total Depravity. Think about it; if all people become Totally Able, people were never Totally Unable to the point their Inability ever really counted. In Arminianism, Total Depravity has an asterisk next to it, and when you read the notation; it says no one is Totally Depraved...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
JStone used to Post here, and he said Prevenient Grace turns people into Semi-Pelagians; or these days it turns people into Provisionists, people who are neutral. If I've learned anything at CARM Forums, that's it. He presented the point as if Arminians are Provisionists with a loophole; people with a useless Appendix known as Total Depravity. Think about it; if all people become Totally Able, people were never Totally Unable to the point their Inability ever really counted. In Arminianism, Total Depravity has an asterisk next to it, and when you read the notation; it says no one is Totally Depraved...
Sad.
But I think that’s the real issue.

It’s something the Arminians took from Rome after the Reformation.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
If by "depraved of" you mean that the image of God is non-existent, then you are incorrect!
I should have been more specific. All men having sinned in Adam, being spiritually dead are robbed of the image of God, so that everyone is void of spiritual light, love, truth, life and holiness.

Just by the fact that the image of God is restored through regeneration, if it is restored obviously it was once lost.

All the glory of holiness are absent in man. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3.
In fallen man dwells no good thing. Rom 7:8
We’re dead in trespass and sin. Eph 2.
Our understanding is darkened and we’re alienated from the life of God. Eph 4:18

apply Prevenient grace to these things, it comes up short.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Carbon said:
As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual things. Their minds are darkened by sin, and their hearts are corrupt and evil.
@TibiasDad You said,

“”This is true, but blind and deaf are not the same as being dead. The only thing that is needed to take away darkness is light, "the light of all mankind". (John 1:4, 5)””

So how does your Prevenient grace cure their minds of sin & remove the evil from their hearts?

Would you care to explain your understanding of John 1:4,5?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
@TibiasDad You said,

“”This is true, but blind and deaf are not the same as being dead. The only thing that is needed to take away darkness is light, "the light of all mankind". (John 1:4, 5)””

So how does your Prevenient grace cure their minds of sin & remove the evil from their hearts?

Would you care to explain your understanding of John 1:4,5?
And right here is a denial of the post’s deadness in Adam. They are not really dead, just walking around with a snotty nose.

#RSV
 
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