Carbon
Well-known member
Look at our world today Doug. Look at the crime, homosexuality, abortions, etc...When was the last time you saw anything proceed from a dead man? What kind of desires do dead men have?
Then you tell me.
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Look at our world today Doug. Look at the crime, homosexuality, abortions, etc...When was the last time you saw anything proceed from a dead man? What kind of desires do dead men have?
@TibiasDadCarbon said:
Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation.
Well they surely are not dead enough. I imagine though, some are deader than others. Guess God leaves us room to debate on how dead we actually are.And right here is a denial of the post’s deadness in Adam. They are not really dead, just walking around with a snotty nose.
#RSV
No we do not! And to continue as such, is to assert a straw man argument!I think you just don’t see it. But Arminians are relying on their natural self.
So they believe in and of themselves they desire Christ
I didn't say that at all....So, Prevenient grace gets rid of fallen mans condition?
It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being! The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self, the Imago Dei, of what it really needs, which in turn, excites the long suppressed desire for its creator. In layman's terms, it is Pascal's God shaped void that sees, for the first time, that there is something other than what we've been trying to fill the void with, some other bread with which to satisfy our hungering!It enables man to have a desire for Christ,
it enables them to become God seekers and they seek Him until salvation. So basically it partially restores man?
Again, you are misrepresenting and seemingly ignoring what I actually have said! You are merely responding with your canned responses and assumed (if not fabricated) understanding of my beliefs and theology! Respond to me, Carbon; respond to my actual comments and arguments, not what you've been taught that I allegedly believe! If you don't understand my definitions or descriptions, object to what I've stated or query further as to my meaning and intent!If that were so, why even take man out of his dead state of ignorance in the first place?
So Prevenient grace goes to all, and some God may just ignore and not save? Even though Prevenient grace brought this person out of the spiritually dead state and enabled him to choose Christ?
Wow that’s a seriously messed up belief.
So God shows man his condition and need while they are still in the spiritually dead state. so, in some cases then, some dead men become God seekers? Why not all?It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being!
So God walks with dead people and works from the outside with them? Coaching and wooing them along until they get to the place to make a decision?The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self,
Not “too” Doug. Because you don’t believe God brings one out of a spiritually dead state. If you did you would disagree with PG.Besides, Calvinism teaches that God brings a "person out of the spiritually dead state and enable(s) him to choose Christ" too;
I don’t believe as you do. I’m shocked you don’t see the difference.we differ as to the process of God's methodology to accomplish this fact! Do not decry me of that which you believe yourself!
Doug
Yes, you should...your generalities belie the weakness of your arguments!I should have been more specific.
I do not believe all men have sinned in Adam; we are not culpable for his decision, but we are affected by the results of his decision! Because Adam was separated from God, all his progeny are also separated from God.All men having sinned in Adam,
Being "void of spiritual light, love, truth, life and holiness" is not to be robbed of, and thus dispossessed of the image of God. A 57 Chevy, without tires, spark plugs, or steering wheel is no less a 57 Chevy, it it simply a worthless and dilapidated 57 Chevy in need of restoration! The essence of our being human is not gone, it is rendered ineffective and unable to achieve the level of function it was created to achieve, namely, be in relationship with God and function in harmony with his desires!being spiritually dead are robbed of the image of God, so that everyone is void of spiritual light, love, truth, life and holiness.
Restoration does not mean something is non-existent. Something has to exist to be restored! We do not lose the Imago Dei, the Imago Dei is destroyed and damaged to the point that it cannot function within man as it should, that is, it cannot produce the righteous responses to God's voice that it should be able to!Just by the fact that the image of God is restored through regeneration, if it is restored obviously it was once lost.
True enough!All the glory of holiness are [sic] (is) absent in man. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3.
In fallen man dwells no good thing. Rom 7:8
We’re dead in trespass and sin. Eph 2.
True enough!Our understanding is darkened and we’re alienated from the life of God. Eph 4:18
The Prevenient action of grace is not the only action of grace. The aspect of Prevenient grace is prepatory, and it is both irresistible and effectual in its activity. It is not, in itself, intended to effect salvation itself, but only the conditions wherein and whereby true reconciliation can be completed!apply Prevenient grace to these things, it comes up short.
Actually, it might also be that Calvinists cannot believe that man is so depraved that even with the ability to believe (and no lack of atonement available), they would still refuse to come to Christ. No, they can't be that bad--it must be that they just aren't able... So you see, it could be that the Calvinists are the ones who just aren't willing to accept a depravity that is that extensive.The doctrine most Arminians seem to have issue with is Limited Atonement. This is also why some claim to be 4 point Calvinists. I had an issue with this myself.
However, I believe the real issue is the doctrine of Total Depravity. Or, if you prefer, Total Inability.
Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation. This is a clear indication that they do not understand the fall and total depravity. Therefore, they do not even understand themselves.
Furthermore, since they believe man is born with just enough natural faith, how could limited atonement be true. If man has the ability, then potentially everyone can be saved. Therefore, limited atonement is false.
Due to the trespass and the fall, numerous sinful and painful miseries have resulted.
1) Man was immediately depraved of the image of God.
2) Man was conscience of shame. Due to the shame of being naked they wouldn’t go near God.
3) their conscience was terrified. They became conscious of comitting sin. The presence of God gave them joy, but now it caused them fear so they hid.
4) Adam manifested a sinful self love by seeking to excuse himself, he even accused his wife Eve.
Now man is subject to death.
God told them if they eat of it they shall die.
A lot happened, the ground was cursed, etc...
They broke the covenant and God announced the covenant of grace.
As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual things. Their minds are darkened by sin, and their hearts are corrupt and evil.
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mark 7.
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8.
That’s a great fall. The whole of mans being has been affected by sin. This corruption extends to every part of man, body, soul, it’s all effected by sin, his mind, his will, etc.
If the free willers understood mans corruption, limited atonement (and the other doctrines of grace) would make perfect sense.
So then, dead does not mean inanimate or nonfunctional, like a human corpse? Dead just means that functionality is not able to perform at the level it is supposed to perform?Look at our world today Doug. Look at the crime, homosexuality, abortions, etc...
Then you tell me.
Isn't that what he did with you? Do all Calvinists always become believers at the first exposure to the gospel? Did you? I know that I certainly did not! I was raised in a Christian home, my grandfather was a preacher, was taken to church my whole life every time the doors were opened and it was possible to be there! God was shedding light on my darkness for seventeen years before I surrendered to his call!But yet, God walks with and hangs out with actual filthy, evil, God hating sinners trying to shine a little light for their spiritual blindness?
But the fall of Adam bent his posterity’s will to sin and self. That’s what makes them unable and unwilling to favorably respond to the proclamation of the gospel.Actually, it might also be that Calvinists cannot believe that man is so depraved that even with the ability to believe (and no lack of atonement available), they would still refuse to come to Christ. No, they can't be that bad--it must be that they just aren't able... So you see, it could be that the Calvinists are the ones who just aren't willing to accept a depravity that is that extensive.
Death can mean different things Doug, depending on the context.So then, dead does not mean inanimate or nonfunctional, like a human corpse? Dead just means that functionality is not able to perform at the level it is supposed to perform?
Doug
If I am an elect, and Christ appeased God’s anger towards me, and He had mercy on me, redemption was applied at the appointed time.Isn't that what he did with you?
Do all Calvinists always become believers at the first exposure to the gospel? Did you?
And that’s the way God designed it for you. But there are many who lived the same way with no results. So why you and not the others?I know that I certainly did not! I was raised in a Christian home, my grandfather was a preacher, was taken to church my whole life every time the doors were opened and it was possible to be there! God was shedding light on my darkness for seventeen years before I surrendered to his call!
Doug
It may just be your still trying to convince yourself of a middle position?Actually, it might also be that Calvinists cannot believe that man is so depraved that even with the ability to believe (and no lack of atonement available), they would still refuse to come to Christ. No, they can't be that bad--it must be that they just aren't able... So you see, it could be that the Calvinists are the ones who just aren't willing to accept a depravity that is that extensive.
Doug I think the difference between us is we believe that when God enables someone it is 100% effectual and it always accomplishes its intended purpose. The salvation of those given to Him by the Father to redeem.No we do not! And to continue as such, is to assert a straw man argument!
I didn't say that at all....
It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being! The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self, the Imago Dei, of what it really needs, which in turn, excites the long suppressed desire for its creator. In layman's terms, it is Pascal's God shaped void that sees, for the first time, that there is something other than what we've been trying to fill the void with, some other bread with which to satisfy our hungering!
It allows us to respond to God's seeking of us! All that God has ever done is to allow us to seek for him and reach out for him and find him, for "he is not very far from any one of us!" (Act 17:27)
Again, you are misrepresenting and seemingly ignoring what I actually have said! You are merely responding with your canned responses and assumed (if not fabricated) understanding of my beliefs and theology! Respond to me, Carbon; respond to my actual comments and arguments, not what you've been taught that I allegedly believe! If you don't understand my definitions or descriptions, object to what I've stated or query further as to my meaning and intent!
Besides, Calvinism teaches that God brings a "person out of the spiritually dead state and enable(s) him to choose Christ" too; we differ as to the process of God's methodology to accomplish this fact! Do not decry me of that which you believe yourself!
Doug
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean all things are probable, or willed by God.With God all things are possible.
No. I don't see what that has to do with anything. If there were anyone who could have done better than Adam, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.What, you think you could have done better than Adam?
Who said differently?Perhaps, but that doesn't mean all things are probable, or willed by God.
Well I’m glad you admitted that.No. I don't see what that has to do with anything. If there were anyone who could have done better than Adam, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
But I also believe that “the when God enables someone it’s 100% effectual and always pool accomplishes its intended purpose”! Prevenient grace is only one step in the process and it accomplishes exactly what is sets out to do.Doug I think the difference between us is we believe that when God enables someone it is 100% effectual and it always accomplishes its intended purpose. The salvation of those given to Him by the Father to redeem.