The real issue is .......

Carbon

Well-known member
Carbon said:
Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation.
@TibiasDad
“”Nothing could be further from the truth, and if you had actually studied what those such as me believe, we could have much better conversations!””

Well at least in your case, I stand corrected to a degree.
Since you believe Prevenient grace restores man back to the image of God. Which is total nonsense!
 

Carbon

Well-known member
And right here is a denial of the post’s deadness in Adam. They are not really dead, just walking around with a snotty nose.

#RSV
Well they surely are not dead enough. I imagine though, some are deader than others. Guess God leaves us room to debate on how dead we actually are.

I know from my past, I was quite dead. Guess i was one of the less fortunate ones.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I think you just don’t see it. But Arminians are relying on their natural self.
So they believe in and of themselves they desire Christ
No we do not! And to continue as such, is to assert a straw man argument!
So, Prevenient grace gets rid of fallen mans condition?
I didn't say that at all....

It enables man to have a desire for Christ,
It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being! The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self, the Imago Dei, of what it really needs, which in turn, excites the long suppressed desire for its creator. In layman's terms, it is Pascal's God shaped void that sees, for the first time, that there is something other than what we've been trying to fill the void with, some other bread with which to satisfy our hungering!

it enables them to become God seekers and they seek Him until salvation. So basically it partially restores man?

It allows us to respond to God's seeking of us! All that God has ever done is to allow us to seek for him and reach out for him and find him, for "he is not very far from any one of us!" (Act 17:27)
If that were so, why even take man out of his dead state of ignorance in the first place?
So Prevenient grace goes to all, and some God may just ignore and not save? Even though Prevenient grace brought this person out of the spiritually dead state and enabled him to choose Christ?
Wow that’s a seriously messed up belief.
Again, you are misrepresenting and seemingly ignoring what I actually have said! You are merely responding with your canned responses and assumed (if not fabricated) understanding of my beliefs and theology! Respond to me, Carbon; respond to my actual comments and arguments, not what you've been taught that I allegedly believe! If you don't understand my definitions or descriptions, object to what I've stated or query further as to my meaning and intent!

Besides, Calvinism teaches that God brings a "person out of the spiritually dead state and enable(s) him to choose Christ" too; we differ as to the process of God's methodology to accomplish this fact! Do not decry me of that which you believe yourself!


Doug
 

Carbon

Well-known member
It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being!
So God shows man his condition and need while they are still in the spiritually dead state. so, in some cases then, some dead men become God seekers? Why not all?

What about the other states besides spiritually blind? Like, spiritually deaf, God haters, darkened hearts, etc...
Does PG fix?

The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self,
So God walks with dead people and works from the outside with them? Coaching and wooing them along until they get to the place to make a decision?

Arminianism is amazing, that’s for sure,
The Father that gave His only begotten Son, turned His head from Christ and forsake Him, when He was on the cross because He is holy and can’t look upon sin, even though it was a sin created out of nothing according to Arminianism. But yet, God walks with and hangs out with actual filthy, evil, God hating sinners trying to shine a little light for their spiritual blindness?

Okay Doug, got ya. 😩
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Besides, Calvinism teaches that God brings a "person out of the spiritually dead state and enable(s) him to choose Christ" too;
Not “too” Doug. Because you don’t believe God brings one out of a spiritually dead state. If you did you would disagree with PG.

You believe God works with dead God hating evil sinners casting a little light on the situation, and by doing such, somehow makes them able.

we differ as to the process of God's methodology to accomplish this fact! Do not decry me of that which you believe yourself!


Doug
I don’t believe as you do. I’m shocked you don’t see the difference.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I should have been more specific.
Yes, you should...your generalities belie the weakness of your arguments!

All men having sinned in Adam,
I do not believe all men have sinned in Adam; we are not culpable for his decision, but we are affected by the results of his decision! Because Adam was separated from God, all his progeny are also separated from God.

being spiritually dead are robbed of the image of God, so that everyone is void of spiritual light, love, truth, life and holiness.
Being "void of spiritual light, love, truth, life and holiness" is not to be robbed of, and thus dispossessed of the image of God. A 57 Chevy, without tires, spark plugs, or steering wheel is no less a 57 Chevy, it it simply a worthless and dilapidated 57 Chevy in need of restoration! The essence of our being human is not gone, it is rendered ineffective and unable to achieve the level of function it was created to achieve, namely, be in relationship with God and function in harmony with his desires!


Just by the fact that the image of God is restored through regeneration, if it is restored obviously it was once lost.
Restoration does not mean something is non-existent. Something has to exist to be restored! We do not lose the Imago Dei, the Imago Dei is destroyed and damaged to the point that it cannot function within man as it should, that is, it cannot produce the righteous responses to God's voice that it should be able to!


All the glory of holiness are [sic] (is) absent in man. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3.
True enough!




In fallen man dwells no good thing. Rom 7:8

Thus, he had no innate or natural capacity for true godly goodness.


We’re dead in trespass and sin. Eph 2.

Dead meaning out of relationship with our only source of life, separated from God, not inanimate or completely non-functional.

Our understanding is darkened and we’re alienated from the life of God. Eph 4:18
True enough!


apply Prevenient grace to these things, it comes up short.
The Prevenient action of grace is not the only action of grace. The aspect of Prevenient grace is prepatory, and it is both irresistible and effectual in its activity. It is not, in itself, intended to effect salvation itself, but only the conditions wherein and whereby true reconciliation can be completed!


Doug
 
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Ken Hamrick

Active member
The doctrine most Arminians seem to have issue with is Limited Atonement. This is also why some claim to be 4 point Calvinists. I had an issue with this myself.

However, I believe the real issue is the doctrine of Total Depravity. Or, if you prefer, Total Inability.

Since Arminians and other free willers believe man has just a little bit left in him to be able to express his natural faith unto salvation. This is a clear indication that they do not understand the fall and total depravity. Therefore, they do not even understand themselves.
Furthermore, since they believe man is born with just enough natural faith, how could limited atonement be true. If man has the ability, then potentially everyone can be saved. Therefore, limited atonement is false.

Due to the trespass and the fall, numerous sinful and painful miseries have resulted.

1) Man was immediately depraved of the image of God.
2) Man was conscience of shame. Due to the shame of being naked they wouldn’t go near God.
3) their conscience was terrified. They became conscious of comitting sin. The presence of God gave them joy, but now it caused them fear so they hid.
4) Adam manifested a sinful self love by seeking to excuse himself, he even accused his wife Eve.

Now man is subject to death.
God told them if they eat of it they shall die.
A lot happened, the ground was cursed, etc...

They broke the covenant and God announced the covenant of grace.

As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual things. Their minds are darkened by sin, and their hearts are corrupt and evil.


For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.” Mark 7.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8.

That’s a great fall. The whole of mans being has been affected by sin. This corruption extends to every part of man, body, soul, it’s all effected by sin, his mind, his will, etc.

If the free willers understood mans corruption, limited atonement (and the other doctrines of grace) would make perfect sense.
Actually, it might also be that Calvinists cannot believe that man is so depraved that even with the ability to believe (and no lack of atonement available), they would still refuse to come to Christ. No, they can't be that bad--it must be that they just aren't able... So you see, it could be that the Calvinists are the ones who just aren't willing to accept a depravity that is that extensive.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Look at our world today Doug. Look at the crime, homosexuality, abortions, etc...

Then you tell me.
So then, dead does not mean inanimate or nonfunctional, like a human corpse? Dead just means that functionality is not able to perform at the level it is supposed to perform?

Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
But yet, God walks with and hangs out with actual filthy, evil, God hating sinners trying to shine a little light for their spiritual blindness?
Isn't that what he did with you? Do all Calvinists always become believers at the first exposure to the gospel? Did you? I know that I certainly did not! I was raised in a Christian home, my grandfather was a preacher, was taken to church my whole life every time the doors were opened and it was possible to be there! God was shedding light on my darkness for seventeen years before I surrendered to his call!

Doug
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Actually, it might also be that Calvinists cannot believe that man is so depraved that even with the ability to believe (and no lack of atonement available), they would still refuse to come to Christ. No, they can't be that bad--it must be that they just aren't able... So you see, it could be that the Calvinists are the ones who just aren't willing to accept a depravity that is that extensive.
But the fall of Adam bent his posterity’s will to sin and self. That’s what makes them unable and unwilling to favorably respond to the proclamation of the gospel.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
So then, dead does not mean inanimate or nonfunctional, like a human corpse? Dead just means that functionality is not able to perform at the level it is supposed to perform?

Doug
Death can mean different things Doug, depending on the context.
As far as the Fall goes, spiritually dead means what God says it means.

Spiritually dead is like what Piper said. Your like a rock to God. Resistant to God, unresponsive, insensitive, unloving; we love all the wrong things, we can’t love the right things.
God must save us through regeneration. He must make us alive. Until regeneration we not only do not want God but we cannot even understand or appraise the things of God.


Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Cor 2.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Isn't that what he did with you?
Do all Calvinists always become believers at the first exposure to the gospel? Did you?
If I am an elect, and Christ appeased God’s anger towards me, and He had mercy on me, redemption was applied at the appointed time.
It’s what Christ has done.
Can you point out and explain the exact moment of new birth, or conception?

I know a lot of Arminians that say they can, it’s at the moment they decided to choose Christ. That reaks with the stench of easybelievism.
I know that I certainly did not! I was raised in a Christian home, my grandfather was a preacher, was taken to church my whole life every time the doors were opened and it was possible to be there! God was shedding light on my darkness for seventeen years before I surrendered to his call!

Doug
And that’s the way God designed it for you. But there are many who lived the same way with no results. So why you and not the others?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Actually, it might also be that Calvinists cannot believe that man is so depraved that even with the ability to believe (and no lack of atonement available), they would still refuse to come to Christ. No, they can't be that bad--it must be that they just aren't able... So you see, it could be that the Calvinists are the ones who just aren't willing to accept a depravity that is that extensive.
It may just be your still trying to convince yourself of a middle position?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
No we do not! And to continue as such, is to assert a straw man argument!

I didn't say that at all....


It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being! The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self, the Imago Dei, of what it really needs, which in turn, excites the long suppressed desire for its creator. In layman's terms, it is Pascal's God shaped void that sees, for the first time, that there is something other than what we've been trying to fill the void with, some other bread with which to satisfy our hungering!



It allows us to respond to God's seeking of us! All that God has ever done is to allow us to seek for him and reach out for him and find him, for "he is not very far from any one of us!" (Act 17:27)

Again, you are misrepresenting and seemingly ignoring what I actually have said! You are merely responding with your canned responses and assumed (if not fabricated) understanding of my beliefs and theology! Respond to me, Carbon; respond to my actual comments and arguments, not what you've been taught that I allegedly believe! If you don't understand my definitions or descriptions, object to what I've stated or query further as to my meaning and intent!

Besides, Calvinism teaches that God brings a "person out of the spiritually dead state and enable(s) him to choose Christ" too; we differ as to the process of God's methodology to accomplish this fact! Do not decry me of that which you believe yourself!


Doug
Doug I think the difference between us is we believe that when God enables someone it is 100% effectual and it always accomplishes its intended purpose. The salvation of those given to Him by the Father to redeem.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
What, you think you could have done better than Adam?
No. I don't see what that has to do with anything. If there were anyone who could have done better than Adam, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Doug I think the difference between us is we believe that when God enables someone it is 100% effectual and it always accomplishes its intended purpose. The salvation of those given to Him by the Father to redeem.
But I also believe that “the when God enables someone it’s 100% effectual and always pool accomplishes its intended purpose”! Prevenient grace is only one step in the process and it accomplishes exactly what is sets out to do.

Think of it as putting has into a car. It is a necessary step toward driving, but it doesn’t start the car, it doesn’t turn the key to start the engine. Grace that goes before sets everything up so that mankind "would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us." (Acts 17:27) Any one of us might seek him, reach out for him, and find him because of the grace that went before.

But, while this setting of the table is effectually finished, and thus has accomplished what it set out to do, its responsibility is not to save in itself, but to create the opportunity that any one of us might be saved.

Doug
 
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