The real issue is .......

TibiasDad

Well-known member
So if that is His intent then why does He not do so? Especially if this enabling is universal.
He has done so, he has made himself available to all of us, for "he is not far from any one of us" (Acts 17:27), and he says to all in Isa 55:
"1“Come, all you who are thirsty,come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. 2Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare. 3Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live.I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David. 4See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a ruler and commander of the peoples.

5Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor.”

6Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Again, Paul says in Acts 17:

24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

And as Isaiah says, He "will accomplish what I desire" (55:11), he intended for man to seek him, and man does seek him and does reach out for him and does find him.

Doug
 

Carbon

Well-known member
The doctrine most Arminians seem to have issue with is Limited Atonement. This is also why some claim to be 4 point Calvinists. I had an issue with this myself.

However, I believe the real issue is the doctrine of Total Depravity. Or, if you prefer, Total Inability.
I don’t believe many people really understand what spiritually dead means.

Spiritually dead is “dead spiritually” man by nature is spiritually dead and separated from God, the spiritually dead are completely immersed in the things of the flesh.
He is as full of sin as a dead body if full of worms. There is no working and helping along a dead person, he’s dead. No counseling, wooing or persuading will help, he is unable to do anything spiritual for himself.

In order for him to come to Christ, the Holy Spirit must quicken him and grant him spiritual life.
As a result of regeneration, Christ is formed in him, life is created in his soul and this new life inclines towards Jesus.

When this happens notice all the sinful things that were previously enjoyable become despicable.
Many things he enjoyed and sought out, he now flees.

The Spirit gives life to the dead.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
He has done so, he has made himself available to all of us, for "he is not far from any one of us" (Acts 17:27), and he says to all in Isa 55:
"1“Come, all you who are thirsty,come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. 2Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare. 3Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live.I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David. 4See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a ruler and commander of the peoples.

5Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations you do not know will come running to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor.”

6Seek the Lord while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Again, Paul says in Acts 17:

24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

And as Isaiah says, He "will accomplish what I desire" (55:11), he intended for man to seek him, and man does seek him and does reach out for him and does find him.

Doug
I think you misunderstood my question. If His intent is to save all and He enables all, even those He knows who will not believe for some reason, to believe then why does He not enable all in such a way that they believe?
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
I don’t believe many people really understand what spiritually dead means.

Spiritually dead is “dead spiritually” man by nature is spiritually dead and separated from God, the spiritually dead are completely immersed in the things of the flesh.
He is as full of sin as a dead body if full of worms. There is no working and helping along a dead person, he’s dead. No counseling, wooing or persuading will help, he is unable to do anything spiritual for himself.

In order for him to come to Christ, the Holy Spirit must quicken him and grant him spiritual life.
As a result of regeneration, Christ is formed in him, life is created in his soul and this new life inclines towards Jesus.

When this happens notice all the sinful things that were previously enjoyable become despicable.
Many things he enjoyed and sought out, he now flees.

The Spirit gives life to the dead.
Good explanation thank you
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I think you misunderstood my question. If His intent is to save all and He enables all, even those He knows who will not believe for some reason, to believe then why does He not enable all in such a way that they believe?
Because we are created in his image with wills. We are created to think, rationalize between differing information, and decide for ourselves. It is not God’s intent to make that choice for us and violate his image within us!

He is willing to save all who repent and return to him. He enables us to have all that we need to understand our standing with him and calls us to repent! What we do in response is up to us!

Doug
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I think you misunderstood my question. If His intent is to save all and He enables all, even those He knows who will not believe for some reason, to believe then why does He not enable all in such a way that they believe?

His intent was to raise up a Savior for His people Israel, and having provided salvation for them, salvation henceforth to anyone who responds to the call to follow His son.
 

civic

Well-known member
His intent was to raise up a Savior for His people Israel, and having provided salvation for them, salvation henceforth to anyone who responds to the call to follow His son.
And the Son is Lord and God. John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20 and God Almighty Rev 1:8 who is the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last. Besides Him there is no other Lord ( YHWH ) God. ROMANS 10:9-13. cf Joel 2:32. The One Lord, the Only Sovereign Lord by which men must confess and be saved.

hope this helps !!!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Because we are created in his image with wills. We are created to think, rationalize between differing information, and decide for ourselves. It is not God’s intent to make that choice for us and violate his image within us!

He is willing to save all who repent and return to him. He enables us to have all that we need to understand our standing with him and calls us to repent! What we do in response is up to us!

Doug
No one said He makes the choice for you. That is a strawman.

According to you He wants all to be saved and enables us to make that choice right? So why not enable all in a way that ensures all choose to be saved?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
No one said He makes the choice for you. That is a strawman.

According to you He wants all to be saved and enables us to make that choice right? So why not enable all in a way that ensures all choose to be saved?
He might say, because He does not violate anyone’s free will.

But really, it’s not against man will. We’re all saved by grace which does not violate free will.

Even the reprobate which God gives them not only what they deserve but also what they want, which does not violate free will.

and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.John 5:40
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
He might say, because He does not violate anyone’s free will.

But really, it’s not against man will. We’re all saved by grace which does not violate free will.

Even the reprobate which God gives then not only what they deserve but also what they want, which does not violate free will.
I would say He does not have to violate anyone's will to accomplish His will. He can and does enable one in a way where they freely choose what He would have them to choose.

I would also point out the Bible does not say God would not violate your free will let alone does it define the will as free as they would assert.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I would say He does not have to violate anyone's will to accomplish His will. He can and does enable one in a way where they freely choose what He would have them to choose.

I would also point out the Bible does not say God would not violate your free will let alone does it define the will as free as they would assert.
Every time I see people debate this issue, it seems like there's this need to dance around the fact that if someone never hears the gospel message, they can't make that choice to begin with. From that standpoint, free will becomes a moot point. In other words, free will is not what saves anyone, but the ability to have that choice to begin with. Those who don't have that choice, are damned, and those who do, aren't.

This is what it means when Paul points out that it isn't by will or effort, but God who shows mercy. Free will is a joke.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
I would say He does not have to violate anyone's will to accomplish His will. He can and does enable one in a way where they freely choose what He would have them to choose.

I would also point out the Bible does not say God would not violate your free will let alone does it define the will as free as they would assert.
Indeed.
I agree with you.

I’m just saying whether salvation or dealing with the reprobate, neither will is violated.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Every time I see people debate this issue, it seems like there's this need to dance around the fact that if someone never hears the gospel message, they can't make that choice to begin with. From that standpoint, free will becomes a moot point.
How so? There freely doing what they want. God owes no man anything.
In other words, free will is not what saves anyone, but the ability to have that choice to begin with. Those who don't have that choice, are damned, and those who do, aren't.

This is what it means when Paul points out that it isn't by will or effort, but God who shows mercy. Free will is a joke.
You don’t believe man has free will?

Seems man expresses it all the time
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
No one said He makes the choice for you. That is a strawman.

According to you He wants all to be saved and enables us to make that choice right? So why not enable all in a way that ensures all choose to be saved?
The decree of God that X will be saved and Y will not be is the only decision that counts! He Elects, thus he chooses, before mankind is even created! This is your doctrine, is it not? He makes the choice that X will necessarily choose to believe, and that Y will necessarily choose to not believe. I am choosing precisely what God chose for me to choose, which is to believe in Christ, and to not to agree with you. I could do nothing else!

Doug
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And he's doubling down on his straw-man...
The decree of God that X will be saved and Y will not be is the only decision that counts!

To God alone be the glory, amen!

He Elects, thus he chooses, before mankind is even created! This is your doctrine, is it not?

No, it is GOD's doctrine.

He makes the choice that X will necessarily choose to believe,

There is no such thing as "choosing to believe".
It is an UNBiblical concept.
One either "believes" (because God gave him faith),
or one DOESN'T "believe" (because God doesn't give him faith).

and that Y will necessarily choose to not believe.

Without being regenerated, the natural man is a slave to sin, hating His creator, and has on reason to "choose" anything other than not believing.

I am choosing precisely what God chose for me to choose, which is to believe in Christ,

No, because there is no such thing as "choosing to believe".
There is only "believing".
 

Carbon

Well-known member
The decree of God that X will be saved and Y will not be is the only decision that counts! He Elects, thus he chooses, before mankind is even created! This is your doctrine, is it not? He makes the choice that X will necessarily choose to believe, and that Y will necessarily choose to not believe. I am choosing precisely what God chose for me to choose, which is to believe in Christ, and to not to agree with you. I could do nothing else!

Doug
It still does not violate free will.

just sayin
 

Ken Hamrick

Active member
The decree of God that X will be saved and Y will not be is the only decision that counts! He Elects, thus he chooses, before mankind is even created! This is your doctrine, is it not? He makes the choice that X will necessarily choose to believe, and that Y will necessarily choose to not believe. I am choosing precisely what God chose for me to choose, which is to believe in Christ, and to not to agree with you. I could do nothing else!

Doug
By claiming you could do nothing else, you are expanding the scope of possibility from this created world to include God's knowledge and power. You're not saying that within this created world, there were no alternative courses of action possible; rather, you're saying that it would be impossible for God's foreknowledge to be wrong and impossible for God to fail in carrying out His plan. You as a creature have no right to change God's plan or demand a different one. And I challenge you to show that when the scope of possibility is limited to this created world, it was impossible for you to choose otherwise in any decision you made.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
By claiming you could do nothing else, you are expanding the scope of possibility from this created world to include God's knowledge and power. You're not saying that within this created world, there were no alternative courses of action possible; rather, you're saying that it would be impossible for God's foreknowledge to be wrong and impossible for God to fail in carrying out His plan. You as a creature have no right to change God's plan or demand a different one. And I challenge you to show that when the scope of possibility is limited to this created world, it was impossible for you to choose otherwise in any decision you made.

The question is not about the certainty of the choice, it is about who determines the certainty. I hold that God knows the certainty, but that the cause of the certainty is man's choice not God's decree that he would choose X.

I am not claiming any right to change God's plan, or authority to demand anything of him. I am simply asserting that God's decree is that man is given the authority to choose. And while he knows with certainty that I will write this post as it is written, I have the freedom to have written it differently. You have, if memory serves, stated the certainty does not demand necessity. That's what I am asserting! Decreeing demands necessity and thus certainty, a decreed choice is a necessary choice and certainly will be, but a certain choice, known by an omniscient God, does not have to be decreed. God can still know precisely what this post will look like, without necessitating it or by disallowing my capacity to choose different words.


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
It still does not violate free will.

just sayin
If I choose by necessity of God's decree, there is no free will to violate. That I do not know that X is decreed and that my choice is only compliance to that decree does not make it free, because it is controlled by something other than myself to which I am unknowingly obligated.

Doug
 
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