The real issue is .......

shnarkle

Well-known member
Because it doesn't matter if one has free will or not. The fact is that if there is no choice, then one's free will isn't a factor to begin with.
There freely doing what they want. God owes no man anything.
Agreed, and beside the point.
You don’t believe man has free will?
Where did you get that from what I posted?
Seems man expresses it all the time
Seems like you think what something seems like is a valid point. It isn't.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Because it doesn't matter if one has free will or not. The fact is that if there is no choice, then one's free will isn't a factor to begin with.
Well man is a free agent, do you agree?
those regenerated freely chose Christ.
Those who are not regenerate are not forced to reject Christ, they free reject Christ.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Well man is a free agent, do you agree?
It doesn't matter if he is or not.
those regenerated freely chose Christ.
Yes, and no. Those regenerated are not free to deny Christ anymore than those who aren't regenerated have the choice to choose Christ.
Those who are not regenerate are not forced to reject Christ, they free reject Christ.
They are not given that option. Christ never knew them.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
It doesn't matter if he is or not.
Why not?
Yes, and no. Those regenerated are not free to deny Christ
Well, they don’t want to. So, they freely choose Him
anymore than those who aren't regenerated have the choice to choose Christ.

They are not given that option. Christ never knew them.
Sure they are given the option. If your a Christian, don’t you tell people the gospel and tell them to repent and believe?
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Because as even you have posted already, it isn't about man's will. It's about God who shows mercy to whomever he pleases.
Well, they don’t want to. So, they freely choose Him
Yes, but again this is beside the point. Only those to whom God reveals himself are free to choose him. Those who are not given this option aren't free to choose him.
Sure they are given the option.
No. They're not.
If your a Christian,
You can have a thousand different people who identify as Christians give you a thousand different definitions of what it means to be a Christian.
don’t you tell people the gospel and tell them to repent and believe?
Again, one Christian tells their version of the gospel while another tells quite another. Telling someone to repent and believe isn't necessarily going to give anyone the ability to do that. Only God can offer anyone the gift of repentance, and he will only offer those whom he has foreordained to salvation.

As Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, but I chose you". Jesus walks up to a tax collector and says, "Follow me", but when a rich young ruler approaches him, Jesus doesn't tell him to follow him because the father isn't drawing him to Christ in the first place.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Because as even you have posted already, it isn't about man's will. It's about God who shows mercy to whomever he pleases.

Yes, but again this is beside the point. Only those to whom God reveals himself are free to choose him. Those who are not given this option aren't free to choose him.

No. They're not.

You can have a thousand different people who identify as Christians give you a thousand different definitions of what it means to be a Christian.

Again, one Christian tells their version of the gospel while another tells quite another. Telling someone to repent and believe isn't necessarily going to give anyone the ability to do that. Only God can offer anyone the gift of repentance, and he will only offer those whom he has foreordained to salvation.

As Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, but I chose you". Jesus walks up to a tax collector and says, "Follow me", but when a rich young ruler approaches him, Jesus doesn't tell him to follow him because the father isn't drawing him to Christ in the first place.
Your an interesting fella
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
The decree of God that X will be saved and Y will not be is the only decision that counts! He Elects, thus he chooses, before mankind is even created! This is your doctrine, is it not? He makes the choice that X will necessarily choose to believe, and that Y will necessarily choose to not believe. I am choosing precisely what God chose for me to choose, which is to believe in Christ, and to not to agree with you. I could do nothing else!

Doug
Now your talking. AMEN!

The set part is that it's my choice and I freely did so. God is good!!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
If I choose by necessity of God's decree, there is no free will to violate. That I do not know that X is decreed and that my choice is only compliance to that decree does not make it free, because it is controlled by something other than myself to which I am unknowingly obligated.

Doug
You have the same problem. If your choice is known beforehand, can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose?
 

Carbon

Well-known member
If I choose by necessity of God's decree, there is no free will to violate.
Name a decree and tell me who is included in the decree.
That I do not know that X is decreed and that my choice is only compliance to that decree does not make it free, because it is controlled by something other than myself to which I am unknowingly obligated.

Doug
If your talking salvation, the elect will believe because God creates life in their souls through regeneration which is a blessing and grace. But they still freely choose. With the new man, comes the gift of faith.

The reprobate are not regenerated, which does not dismiss their obligation to come and believe. They just freely choose not to.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
You have the same problem. If your choice is known beforehand, can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose?
Again, it is not a question of what choice is made, it is a question of who makes the decision certain! Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God determines the the certainty of the result. I do not argue the certainty to be changeable, but that the certainty is not made certain by God's choosing and that, at the moment of choosing, man is capable of choosing freely without constraint of divine decree.

Doug
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God determines the the certainty of the result.

Doug

You must believe that it can include it......

God foreknew His creative actions in the earth. He determined that certainty. That certainty includes the InCarnation, The Crucifixion and etc...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God determines the the certainty of the result.

Actually, it does.
BDAG is quite clear that when the object of "foreknowing" (it's amazing that non-Calvinists ALWAYS change it to the noun, "foreknowledge") is a person, the meaning is "choose in advance", not "realize in advance".

I do not argue the certainty to be changeable, but that the certainty is not made certain by God's choosing and that, at the moment of choosing, man is capable of choosing freely without constraint of divine decree.

1Cor. 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;

1Cor. 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,

Col. 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

2Th. 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits ato be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Rom. 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.

1Cor. 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.

Eph. 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Col. 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1Th. 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2Th. 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

1Pet. 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

1Pet. 5:13 She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

Rev. 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”



Over and over and over again, Scripture testifies that GOD chooses His people, and nowhere does it say that "men choose freely, without divine decree".
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Actually, it does.
BDAG is quite clear that when the object of "foreknowing" (it's amazing that non-Calvinists ALWAYS change it to the noun, "foreknowledge") is a person, the meaning is "choose in advance", not "realize in advance".



1Cor. 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;

1Cor. 1:28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,

Col. 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

2Th. 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits ato be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Rom. 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.

1Cor. 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.

Eph. 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Col. 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1Th. 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2Th. 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

1Pet. 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

1Pet. 5:13 She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

Rev. 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”



Over and over and over again, Scripture testifies that GOD chooses His people, and nowhere does it say that "men choose freely, without divine decree".
So much for the Preeminence of Jesus Christ.....

God's choice has always been His Son.

All those verses you could have included here and you didn't. That speaks wonders....
 

Terry43

Active member
No we do not! And to continue as such, is to assert a straw man argument!

I didn't say that at all....


It enables man to see the reality of his spiritual condition through the preaching of the gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit. If Jesus has the power to make physically blind men see the realities of the physical world, then the Spirit of Christ has the means to make spiritually blind men see the reality of their spiritual state of being! The presence of the Holy Spirit creates the awareness of our own spiritual self, the Imago Dei, of what it really needs, which in turn, excites the long suppressed desire for its creator. In layman's terms, it is Pascal's God shaped void that sees, for the first time, that there is something other than what we've been trying to fill the void with, some other bread with which to satisfy our hungering!



It allows us to respond to God's seeking of us! All that God has ever done is to allow us to seek for him and reach out for him and find him, for "he is not very far from any one of us!" (Act 17:27)

Again, you are misrepresenting and seemingly ignoring what I actually have said! You are merely responding with your canned responses and assumed (if not fabricated) understanding of my beliefs and theology! Respond to me, Carbon; respond to my actual comments and arguments, not what you've been taught that I allegedly believe! If you don't understand my definitions or descriptions, object to what I've stated or query further as to my meaning and intent!

Besides, Calvinism teaches that God brings a "person out of the spiritually dead state and enable(s) him to choose Christ" too; we differ as to the process of God's methodology to accomplish this fact! Do not decry me of that which you believe yourself!


Doug
What about those that never hear the gospel?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
What about those that never hear the gospel?
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The idea that God would intervene and assure the Gospel for all mankind for all generations is a farce. Mankind does not like to retain God in their thoughts.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So much for the Preeminence of Jesus Christ.....

I'm sorry you reject the Preeminence of Jesus Christ.
We don't.

God's choice has always been His Son.

Except that many of those passages have God choosing PLURAL people.
Are you claiming that Christ has been diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder?

All those verses you could have included here and you didn't. That speaks wonders....

Such as?

I love when heretics like you hand wave at passages which don't exist, and then criticize true Christians for "ignoring" passages which don't exist.
 

Terry43

Active member
Man can only choose FROM THE CHOICES AVAILABLE to him... if all you have in your closet is brown shoes you can not choose to take blck ones out of your closet and wear them.. . If you decide to jump off a building..you do not have the "freedom" to change your mind half way down... It is GOD that sets mens choices.. that is why we are called sheep ..
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Again, it is not a question of what choice is made, it is a question of who makes the decision certain! Foreknowledge does not necessitate that God determines the the certainty of the result. I do not argue the certainty to be changeable, but that the certainty is not made certain by God's choosing and that, at the moment of choosing, man is capable of choosing freely without constraint of divine decree.

Doug
Thats not my point. If a choice is known beforehand is the contrary choice possible? I would say no given the choice is certain to be made. What say you?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
I'm sorry you reject the Preeminence of Jesus Christ.
We don't.

Sure you do. You put yourself above Christ Jesus in Elect.

Except that many of those passages have God choosing PLURAL people.
Are you claiming that Christ has been diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder?

Plural. Yes. A corporate Elect predicated upon the only Choice in Jesus Christ. I've told you before. I've never read your name anywhere before. Now Jesus, that is different story. He will have the Preeminence. You'll find that out soon.

Such as?

I love when heretics like you hand wave at passages which don't exist, and then criticize true Christians for "ignoring" passages which don't exist.

Heretic? Where have I said that about you?

Don't pretend they're not there. I'm not going to post because you'll just ignore them like you always have.....
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Man can only choose FROM THE CHOICES AVAILABLE to him... if all you have in your closet is brown shoes you can not choose to take blck ones out of your closet and wear them.. . If you decide to jump off a building..you do not have the "freedom" to change your mind half way down... It is GOD that sets mens choices.. that is why we are called sheep ..

Who said you were a sheep? Where does the Scriptures say that?
 
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