THE Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

Berserk

Member
John is the only gospel of the 4 to omit Jesus' explanation of the Communion bread and wine at the Last Supper. That's because John chooses to relocate His teaching about Holy Communion in 6:53-58. Here are the key verses:

''Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son Man an drink His blood, you have no life in you...For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them...When many of His disciples heard it, they said, "This is hard teaching. Who can accept it?"...Because of this, many of His disciples turned back and no longer went about with Him (John 6:53-56, 66)."

For at least 4 reasons Catholics rightly understand Jesus to be truly present in this sacramental act.
(1) Jesus teaches that the bread and wine are more than mere symbols; they are a means by which Christ actually comes to abide in us, and we in Him.
(2) To guard against a merely symbolic interpretation Jesus stresses that His body and blood are real food and drink, and so, those who eat the bread actually "eat me (6:57)."
(3) The apparent crudeness of this teaching costs Jesus many of His followers--a loss He might have prevented by explaining that He was merely speaking symbolically! But He wasn't; He taught that He was truly present in the Eucharistic act.

(4) Ignatius is the 2nd bishop of Antioch and is installed in that role by the apostles. As such, Ignatius bears witness to the apostolic understanding of Holy Communion as the real presence of Christ. Thus, Ignatius laments that “those who hold heretical opinions about the grace of Jesus Christ … refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which the Father by his goodness raised up” (Smyrnaeans 6.2). This is stunningly realistic language. Because the Eucharist unites us to Christ who suffered and was raised, the Eucharist “is the medicine of immortality, the antidote we take in order not to die but to live forever in Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 20.2)."
 

mica

Well-known member
John is the only gospel of the 4 to omit Jesus' explanation of the Communion bread and wine at the Last Supper. That's because John chooses to relocate His teaching about Holy Communion in 6:53-58. Here are the key verses:

''Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son Man an drink His blood, you have no life in you...For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them...When many of His disciples heard it, they said, "This is hard teaching. Who can accept it?"...Because of this, many of His disciples turned back and no longer went about with Him (John 6:53-56, 66)."

For at least 4 reasons Catholics rightly understand Jesus to be truly present in this sacramental act.
(1) Jesus teaches that the bread and wine are more than mere symbols; they are a means by which Christ actually comes to abide in us, and we in Him.
(2) To guard against a merely symbolic interpretation Jesus stresses that His body and blood are real food and drink, and so, those who eat the bread actually "eat me (6:57)."
(3) The apparent crudeness of this teaching costs Jesus many of His followers--a loss He might have prevented by explaining that He was merely speaking symbolically! But He wasn't; He taught that He was truly present in the Eucharistic act.

(4) Ignatius is the 2nd bishop of Antioch and is installed in that role by the apostles. As such, Ignatius bears witness to the apostolic understanding of Holy Communion as the real presence of Christ. Thus, Ignatius laments that “those who hold heretical opinions about the grace of Jesus Christ … refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which the Father by his goodness raised up” (Smyrnaeans 6.2). This is stunningly realistic language. Because the Eucharist unites us to Christ who suffered and was raised, the Eucharist “is the medicine of immortality, the antidote we take in order not to die but to live forever in Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 20.2)."
no, that happens when we're born again and only those who are born again should be taking part in it.
 

Berserk

Member
no, that happens when we're born again and only those who are born again should be taking part in it.
Before you duck Jesus' plain teaching, kindly address the actual text and the reasons given for real presence. The early church took for granted that the those born again regularly partook of the Eucharist to experience Christ's presence.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Before you duck Jesus' plain teaching, kindly address the actual text and the reasons given for real presence. The early church took for granted that the those born again regularly partook of the Eucharist to experience Christ's presence.
This matter has been flogged to death in other threads. You have provided nothing new to the conversation.. It is symbolic and Jesus never stressed that they were anything other than symbols. The whole Passover meal is full of symbols of what God has done. I noticed some try to make out it is not a Passover meal, but the meal can be held on two nights. But the fact that it is the Passover meal can be supported by the symbols eg the dipping sop into the sauce in remembrance of the bitterness of slaver, as well as the wine and the unleavened bread. We also know the trial of Jesus could not be held on a feast day. We can not get an accurate year for the death of Jesus, it would depend on what was the year of His birth, so it is impossible to accurately date when the Passover was in the year of Jesus death.

During the Last Supper with His apostles, Jesus took two symbols associated with Passover and imbued them with fresh meaning as a way to remember His sacrifice, which saves us from spiritual death and delivers us from spiritual bondage: “After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, ‘Take this and divide it among you. For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.’ And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you’” (Luke 22:17–20).

 
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balshan

Well-known member
Translation: You can only offer mindless pontification because you have nothing worthwhile to offer against my 4 reasons for Real Presence.
You did not give us 4 reasons of any value and you just offered us mindless pontification for their being the Real Presence. The whole meal is full of symbolism. The bread and wine are symbols already in the meal. Jesus picked up the symbols and spoke symbolically. I must thank you for making me focus on how symbolic the whole meal is. Symbolic of what God has done in the past and symbolic of what God was going to do.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
Before you duck Jesus' plain teaching, kindly address the actual text and the reasons given for real presence. The early church took for granted that the those born again regularly partook of the Eucharist to experience Christ's presence.
Jesus teaches clearly on the traditions of man, yet rc's ignore it. So why should we take you seriously now?
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Before you duck Jesus' plain teaching, kindly address the actual text and the reasons given for real presence. The early church took for granted that the those born again regularly partook of the Eucharist to experience Christ's presence.
No Christian has to partake to experience Christs presence....He abides in us at all times.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
No Christian has to partake to experience Christs presence....He abides in us at all times.
Jn 6:53-55 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, and my blood is true drink.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Jn 6:53-55 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you DO NOT HAVE LIFE within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD, and my blood is true drink.
My Bible has these verses

Jn 6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Thanks be to God that it says 'the flesh' not 'my flesh' ;)
John 6 lists two things that give eternal life:
one is symbolic and the other is real.

drinking and eating are metaphors for believing used throughout John:

symbolic
John 4 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 7: “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’

John 6
Jn 6:53-55 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
------------------

Real
Jn 6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
-----------------


and the ones who did not understand the symbolism were the unbelievers who walked away:
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
John 6 lists two thing that give eternal life:
one is symbolic and the other is real.

drinking and eating are metaphors for believing used throughout John:
Christ doubles down...

After the Jews begin to express incredulity at the idea of eating Christ’s flesh, the language begins to intensify. In verse 54, John begins to use trogo instead of phago. Trogo is a decidedly more graphic term, meaning “to chew on” or to “gnaw on”.
 

Johan

Well-known member
Christ doubles down...

After the Jews begin to express incredulity at the idea of eating Christ’s flesh, the language begins to intensify. In verse 54, John begins to use trogo instead of phago. Trogo is a decidedly more graphic term, meaning “to chew on” or to “gnaw on”.
The force of that argument is weakened by the observation that the Evangelist John never uses the present tense of ἐσθίω ("eat"). In John 13:18, which quotes the Psalms, we read:

τρώγων μου τὸν ἄρτον ἐπῆρεν ἐπʼ ἐμὲ τὴν πτέρναν αὐτοῦ = "He who eats my bread raised his heel against me."

So, trōgō is used instead of the more natural esthiō. According to your logic, the verse says "He who chews on my bread". In contrast, the Septuagint rendition of the same verse contains the word ἐσθίων ("eats").
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
The force of that argument is weakened by the observation that the Evangelist John never uses the present tense of ἐσθίω ("eat"). In John 13:18, which quotes the Psalms, we read:
and yet Christ doubles down.... did He say you misunderstand me? Question of the day - What would Christ have to say [that wasn't already stated] for you to believe?
 

Johan

Well-known member
(1) Jesus teaches that the bread and wine are more than mere symbols; they are a means by which Christ actually comes to abide in us, and we in Him.
No bread and wine are mentioned in that passage.
(2) To guard against a merely symbolic interpretation Jesus stresses that His body and blood are real food and drink, and so, those who eat the bread actually "eat me (6:57)."
Maybe you should discuss this with your fellow poster Teresa who objects to the expression "eating Jesus".
(3) The apparent crudeness of this teaching costs Jesus many of His followers--a loss He might have prevented by explaining that He was merely speaking symbolically! But He wasn't; He taught that He was truly present in the Eucharistic act.
But this was, so to speak, meant to happen. Jesus attributes their leaving to the non-empowerment of the Father.

"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them." (John 6:65)
(4) Ignatius is the 2nd bishop of Antioch and is installed in that role by the apostles. As such, Ignatius bears witness to the apostolic understanding of Holy Communion as the real presence of Christ. Thus, Ignatius laments that “those who hold heretical opinions about the grace of Jesus Christ … refuse to acknowledge that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins and which the Father by his goodness raised up” (Smyrnaeans 6.2). This is stunningly realistic language. Because the Eucharist unites us to Christ who suffered and was raised, the Eucharist “is the medicine of immortality, the antidote we take in order not to die but to live forever in Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 20.2)."
I take it that Ignatius was yet another person who denied the salvific efficacy of the cross of Christ.
 

Johan

Well-known member
and yet Christ doubles down.... did He say you misunderstand me? Question of the day - What would Christ have to say [that wasn't already stated] for you to believe?
Why would He correct them? Those who were meant to leave were meant to leave. God shows mercy to those He wants to show mercy and hardens those He wants to harden.

The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." (Matt. 13:10–11)
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Why would He correct them? Those who were meant to leave were meant to leave. God shows mercy to those He wants to show mercy and hardens those He wants to harden.

The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." (Matt. 13:10–11)
Mt 16:5-12 The Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

In coming to the other side of the sea, the disciples had forgotten to bring bread. Jesus said to them, “Look out, and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” They concluded among themselves, saying, “It is because we have brought no bread.” When Jesus became aware of this he said, “You of little faith, why do you conclude among yourselves that it is because you have no bread? Do you not yet understand, and do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many wicker baskets you took up? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you took up? How do you not comprehend that I was not speaking to you about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that he was not telling them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
 
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