The reality of a believing mind.

Tercon

Active member
If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then there is no way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist.

But this can be proven false, if you can simply show just one other way or place outside of or besides a believing mind that possesses the capacity for belief that a believing mind possesses. And if you cannot show of one other way or place outside of a believing mind that can know and make known the truth and reality, then you must concede that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist and to be made known to exist.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then there is no way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist.
Nobody disputes this.
But this can be proven false, if you can simply show just one other way or place outside of or besides a believing mind that possesses the capacity for belief that a believing mind possesses. And if you cannot show of one other way or place outside of a believing mind that can know and make known the truth and reality, then you must concede that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist and to be made known to exist.
False. The fact that a believing mind is required to know the truth and reality does not mean that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist.
 

Tercon

Active member
Nobody disputes this.
Sure you dispute this. If you didn't you'd know what it entailed.

False. The fact that a believing mind is required to know the truth and reality does not mean that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist.
Sure it does and I can prove it, because no-one including YOU can name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist silly.
Why can't atheists admit that if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, when they cannot name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist? Atheism seems to be some kind of mental impairment that prevents the unbeliever from knowing the truth and entering into reality.

And if what all atheists tend to share in common is a unbelief in their own belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to themselves, then all atheists must also share the delusion of universal unbelief as well.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Sure it does and I can prove it, because no-one including YOU can name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist silly.
Why can't atheists admit that if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, when they cannot name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist? Atheism seems to be some kind of mental impairment that prevents the unbeliever from knowing the truth and entering into reality.
The mental impairment is on you, for not realising that just because atheists might not be able to do as you ask, doesn't mean there isn't an explanation.
And if what all atheists tend to share in common is a unbelief in their own belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to themselves, then all atheists must also share the delusion of universal unbelief as well.
Belief alone can't justifiably lead to truth.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Sure you dispute this. If you didn't you'd know what it entailed.
No, I do not dispute it. Nobody does. And we all know what it entails. We know it does not entail what you claim.
Sure it does and I can prove it, because no-one including YOU can name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist silly.
The same old very tired line. Nobody disputes this. Everybody agrees with it. NOBODY agrees with the conclusion you draw from it.
Why can't atheists admit that if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, when they cannot name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist? Atheism seems to be some kind of mental impairment that prevents the unbeliever from knowing the truth and entering into reality.
Atheists repeatedly admit this. I've admited it, every other atheist has admitted it, I have nowhere contradicted it. It is the conclusion you draw from it that NOBODY agrees with.
And if what all atheists tend to share in common is a unbelief in their own belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to themselves, then all atheists must also share the delusion of universal unbelief as well.
EVERYBODY shares that belief except you. No Christian, no Muslim, no Hindu, no atheist believes what you do.

There is no such thing as "universal unbelief".
 

5wize

Well-known member
If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then there is no way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist.

But this can be proven false, if you can simply show just one other way or place outside of or besides a believing mind that possesses the capacity for belief that a believing mind possesses. And if you cannot show of one other way or place outside of a believing mind that can know and make known the truth and reality, then you must concede that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist and to be made known to exist.
Sure you dispute this. If you didn't you'd know what it entailed.


Sure it does and I can prove it, because no-one including YOU can name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist silly.
Why can't atheists admit that if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, when they cannot name another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist? Atheism seems to be some kind of mental impairment that prevents the unbeliever from knowing the truth and entering into reality.

And if what all atheists tend to share in common is a unbelief in their own belief's capacity to make the truth and reality known to themselves, then all atheists must also share the delusion of universal unbelief as well.
Tercon, we've see through your B.S. for years here. Note the subtle difference you impart between your 2 posts dropping the in order to exist from the first to simply known to exist in the second post.

You are a total goof-ball Tercon. Take yourself less seriously like we are forced to.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then there is no way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist.
Still ambiguous as to whether you are saying it is the knowledge or the existence requiring a mind. Again, these are two different claims, so whether or not we dispute it depends upon which claim you are making. By trying to make both claims with the same sentence you are deliberately conflating knowledge and existence.

But this can be proven false, if you can simply show just one other way or place outside of or besides a believing mind that possesses the capacity for belief that a believing mind possesses. And if you cannot show of one other way or place outside of a believing mind that can know and make known the truth and reality, then you must concede that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist and to be made known to exist.
Not even remotely subtle in your bait and switch at the end. No-one disputes that reality requires a mind in order to be KNOWN to exist, but you have failed to give any reason at all for thinking that reality requires a mind in order to exist. Again, the alternative is MIPUST - known by minds but stipulated to need no mind in order to exist.
 

Tercon

Active member
Still ambiguous as to whether you are saying it is the knowledge or the existence requiring a mind. Again, these are two different claims, so whether or not we dispute it depends upon which claim you are making. By trying to make both claims with the same sentence you are deliberately conflating knowledge and existence.
Evasion.
Not even remotely subtle in your bait and switch at the end. No-one disputes that reality requires a mind in order to be KNOWN to exist, but you have failed to give any reason at all for thinking that reality requires a mind in order to exist. Again, the alternative is MIPUST - known by minds but stipulated to need no mind in order to exist.

If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, then there is no other way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist silly.
If there were, then why can't you show us of another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist?
 

Tercon

Active member
Tercon, we've see through your B.S. for years here. Note the subtle difference you impart between your 2 posts dropping the in order to exist from the first to simply known to exist in the second post.

You are a total goof-ball Tercon. Take yourself less seriously like we are forced to.
Actually readers have seen through your lies here for years and I have been only to happy to be a part of helping them do so. A matter of fact I just this minute I got a like from someone who agreed with what I said. Faithoverbelief you BSer
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
Pointing out your continued ambiguity and conflation of knowledge and existence is not evasion.

If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, then there is no other way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist silly. If there were, then why can't you show us of another way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist?
Still ambiguous. Are you asking (i) for a place other then a believing mind where the KNOWLEDGE of reality can be located; or (ii) a place other than a believing mind that we can know of where reality can EXIST?

These are two very different questions, and you are conflating knowledge and existence by failing to distinguish between them.
 

Tercon

Active member
Pointing out your continued ambiguity and conflation of knowledge and existence is not evasion.
And pointing out that YOU cannot know anything about existence without knowledge or have any knowledge without existing refutes your illogical foolishness. Get a grip man, your silly atheism is preventing your brain from working properly. But you don't have to stay that way you know.
Still ambiguous. Are you asking (i) for a place other then a believing mind where the KNOWLEDGE of reality can be located; or (ii) a place other than a believing mind that we can know of where reality can EXIST?
If a mind, the truth and reality all contain knowledge and belief and a believing mind is necessary in order to have any knowledge of the truth and reality, then the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind. Or the truth and reality must be a believing mind. So, the truth and reality must be the product of Someone's believing mind.
These are two very different questions, and you are conflating knowledge and existence by failing to distinguish between them.
If everything you know exists requires YOUR believing mind silly, then existence implies knowledge and knowledge require existence.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
And pointing out that YOU cannot know anything about existence without knowledge or have any knowledge without existing refutes your illogical foolishness. Get a grip man, your silly atheism is preventing your brain from working properly. But you don't have to stay that way you know.
Strawman and evasion, as I'm not claiming to know things without knowledge or to have knowledge without existing, and you are just trying to change the topic from your own deliberate ambiguous language.

If a mind, the truth and reality all contain knowledge and belief and a believing mind is necessary in order to have any knowledge of the truth and reality, then the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind. Or the truth and reality must be a believing mind. So, the truth and reality must be the product of Someone's believing mind.
That doesn't answer what I asked. Try again: Are you asking (i) for a place other then a believing mind where the KNOWLEDGE of reality can be located; or (ii) a place other than a believing mind that we can know of where reality can EXIST? So are you asking (i) or (ii)?

If everything you know exists requires YOUR believing mind silly, then existence implies knowledge and knowledge require existence.
If everything I know to exist requires my believing mind... for what? In order to exist, or in order to be known? You are conflating again, and no, existence does not imply knowledge.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Actually readers have seen through your lies here for years and I have been only to happy to be a part of helping them do so. A matter of fact I just this minute I got a like from someone who agreed with what I said. Faithoverbelief you BSer
Wow... that's impressive. First one I've ever seen you get from even a Christian. Wonder if they understand a damn thing you try to say?
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Actually readers have seen through your lies here for years and I have been only to happy to be a part of helping them do so. A matter of fact I just this minute I got a like from someone who agreed with what I said. Faithoverbelief you BSer
How do you know you got it because they agree with what you say?
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is in and by a believing mind, then there is no way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist.

But this can be proven false, if you can simply show just one other way or place outside of or besides a believing mind that possesses the capacity for belief that a believing mind possesses. And if you cannot show of one other way or place outside of a believing mind that can know and make known the truth and reality, then you must concede that the truth and reality requires a believing mind in order to exist and to be made known to exist.
Most people work out that reality is independent of their beliefs by the time they are about 2 years old. It's an obvious conclusion but I guess in a world of 7 billion people there are going to be a few that have developmental issues that leave them confused and they just don't ever really get it.
 

Tercon

Active member
Pointing out your continued ambiguity and conflation of knowledge and existence is not evasion.
Spewing willful ignorance isn't “pointing out anything” silly, it's just your strawmanning.

Still ambiguous. Are you asking (i) for a place other then a believing mind where the KNOWLEDGE of reality can be located;

No ambiguity here at all just YOU strawmanning, because they both have the same answer.
As if there is NO other way or place any “KNOWLEDGE of reality” can be known to exist outside of a believing mind, then reality must exist in a believing mind in order to be “KNOWLEDGE of reality”.
or (ii) a place other than a believing mind that we can know of where reality can EXIST?

And if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist is a believing mind, then there is no way or “other place other than a believing mind that we can know of where reality can EXIST”.
These are two very different questions, and you are conflating knowledge and existence by failing to distinguish between them.

But in reality are they “two very different questions”, because both have the same answer. I say they are synonymous of one another.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Because all Christians believe God is reality silly. Get a grip man.
No. They think God is part of reality, not that God is reality and certainly not for the reasons you give which is the point here. Be honest please.
 
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