The Reason for Your Confusion concerning Paul and the Law

[Our Lord's God]

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

And the REASON is because they tell themselves that believers "just can't stop sinning" just like everyone else in the world can't stop sinning. So these self deceived people tell themselves they don't sin quite as much as those worldly folks and that makes everything A-okay.

But you see friend, that was the whole problem of the Law. By nature, humans cannot stop sinning and that is a problem which God fixed. The Law was holy, righteous, and good but there was a problem - the human condition. By definition, humans are flesh and the flesh is hostile to God and His will, and His commands, His Law. The flesh only wants to SIN and there was absolutely no provision in the Law to cure them of this problem. The Law only had a provision to clean up the mess - sacrifices for sins over and over. And because of this problem, people kept right on sinning, and because they kept right on sinning, they needed to keep on sacrificing over and over and over and over again.

The solution for this problem would need to come apart from the Law. God provided a cure for this human condition, that is, people sinning over and over and over because they are the flesh of sin which just can't help it. Those who have God's cure no longer continue in sin like those under the Law because God provided freedom from the cause of this problem. And these people walk in righteousness, the righteousness of God.

The Law couldn't help stop humans from sinning because there was no provision in the Law to cure their own human condition which led to their continuing in sin. As such, the Law then only served to condemn them as sinners. But something else did cure this problem. And those with the cure, are free from that condition which caused them to sin over and over. They don't have that problem anymore because they have died to the problem, something a Jew could not do under the Law.

Learn this and you might have a chance at understanding Paul.

 

[Baltic]

My undestanding of Paul cleared up by 70% after i read this book. I wish I knew ancient Greek for another 20%.

Elaine Pagels – The Gnostic Paul. Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Elaine Pagels – The Gnostic Paul. Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters

archive.org

 

[Our Lord's God]

My undestanding of Paul cleared up by 70% after i read this book. I wish I knew ancient Greek for another 20%.

Elaine Pagels – The Gnostic Paul. Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Elaine Pagels – The Gnostic Paul. Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters

archive.org

Disturbing

 

[Baltic]

Disturbing

Makes sense.

 

[JonHawk]

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

All believing souls understand that Paul is testifying that we are justified by faith.
For we, not relying on the Law but by faith through the Spirit eagerly wait for the blessing of our righteousness, right standing with God in conformity to His divine will in [Rom 8:29] in Christ Jesus. Gal 5:5

But you see friend, that was the whole problem of the Law. The solution for this problem would need to come apart from the Law. God provided a cure for thi

And be found in him, not having a righteousness that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 That we may know Christ— the power of his resurrection having partaken in His [atonement] sufferings; Phil 3:9-10

And these people walk in righteousness, the righteousness of God.

Learn this and you might have a chance at understanding Paul.

Once gnostics learn that reconciliation is through Christ Jesus, they're golden.

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you.... therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
2 Peter 1:1-3

 

[Hawkeye]

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

And the REASON is because they tell themselves that believers "just can't stop sinning" just like everyone else in the world can't stop sinning. So these self deceived people tell themselves they don't sin quite as much as those worldly folks and that makes everything A-okay.

But you see friend, that was the whole problem of the Law. By nature, humans cannot stop sinning and that is a problem which God fixed. The Law was holy, righteous, and good but there was a problem - the human condition. By definition, humans are flesh and the flesh is hostile to God and His will, and His commands, His Law. The flesh only wants to SIN and there was absolutely no provision in the Law to cure them of this problem. The Law only had a provision to clean up the mess - sacrifices for sins over and over. And because of this problem, people kept right on sinning, and because they kept right on sinning, they needed to keep on sacrificing over and over and over and over again.

The solution for this problem would need to come apart from the Law. God provided a cure for this human condition, that is, people sinning over and over and over because they are the flesh of sin which just can't help it. Those who have God's cure no longer continue in sin like those under the Law because God provided freedom from the cause of this problem. And these people walk in righteousness, the righteousness of God.

The Law couldn't help stop humans from sinning because there was no provision in the Law to cure their own human condition which led to their continuing in sin. As such, the Law then only served to condemn them as sinners. But something else did cure this problem. And those with the cure, are free from that condition which caused them to sin over and over. They don't have that problem anymore because they have died to the problem, something a Jew could not do under the Law.

Learn this and you might have a chance at understanding Paul.

The Book of Deuteronomy was originally called “Devarim” (Words) by the Hebrews but was changed to Deuteronomy by the translators of the Septuagint (Greek) after they noticed the inclusion of “2” laws (Deut. 1:1-5) and (Deut. 29:1). The law from Horeb ( Mt. Sinai ) is the Ten Commandment law (Exodus 20 to 31) and the second is called the “Moab Covenant” given to the Israelites 40 years later on the Plains of Moab just before they crossed into the Promised Land with Joshua after the death of Moses.

Deuteronomy means Two (Deutero) Laws (Nomos).

The Moab Covenant included The Levite Priesthood, animal sacrifice for individual sins and many other rites performed by the priesthood. You do not find a Levite Priesthood in The Ten Commandments and this explains much of the confusion of Paul’s letters as he sometimes will refer to Horeb and other times to Moab by just saying…..The Law.

Throughout the book you will notice references to “this law/Moab” and other references to “His Law/Horeb”. The Moab Covenant became known as the Law of Moses and the Horeb Covenant is The Law of God. The Law of Moses was cancelled by Yeshua on Golgotha and The Law of God is still in effect.

 

[Baltic]

F

All believing souls understand that Paul is testifying that we are justified by faith.
For we, not relying on the Law but by faith through the Spirit eagerly wait for the blessing of our righteousness, right standing with God in conformity to His divine will in [Rom 8:29] in Christ Jesus. Gal 5:5

And be found in him, not having a righteousness that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 That we may know Christ— the power of his resurrection having partaken in His [atonement] sufferings; Phil 3:9-10

Once gnostics learn that reconciliation is through Christ Jesus, they're golden.

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
2 Peter 1:1-3

faith is gift of God, it manifested when God chooses to persuade a person of Self reality.

 

[DaGeo]

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

And the REASON is because they tell themselves that believers "just can't stop sinning" just like everyone else in the world can't stop sinning. So these self deceived people tell themselves they don't sin quite as much as those worldly folks and that makes everything A-okay.

But you see friend, that was the whole problem of the Law. By nature, humans cannot stop sinning and that is a problem which God fixed. The Law was holy, righteous, and good but there was a problem - the human condition. By definition, humans are flesh and the flesh is hostile to God and His will, and His commands, His Law. The flesh only wants to SIN and there was absolutely no provision in the Law to cure them of this problem. The Law only had a provision to clean up the mess - sacrifices for sins over and over. And because of this problem, people kept right on sinning, and because they kept right on sinning, they needed to keep on sacrificing over and over and over and over again.

The solution for this problem would need to come apart from the Law. God provided a cure for this human condition, that is, people sinning over and over and over because they are the flesh of sin which just can't help it. Those who have God's cure no longer continue in sin like those under the Law because God provided freedom from the cause of this problem. And these people walk in righteousness, the righteousness of God.

The Law couldn't help stop humans from sinning because there was no provision in the Law to cure their own human condition which led to their continuing in sin. As such, the Law then only served to condemn them as sinners. But something else did cure this problem. And those with the cure, are free from that condition which caused them to sin over and over. They don't have that problem anymore because they have died to the problem, something a Jew could not do under the Law.

Learn this and you might have a chance at understanding Paul.

Whoops you just sinned again when you said you don’t sin ?
Please, I’m only trying to help you by pointing out your sins so you will finally recognize them and stop all this sinning?
It’s also a sin to call God a liar (you do that when you claim to be without sin) but we can work on that sin next time. First, you need to take one step at a time and work on just one sin at a time.
You’re welcome, happy to help

 

[Gary Mac]

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

And the REASON is because they tell themselves that believers "just can't stop sinning" just like everyone else in the world can't stop sinning. So these self deceived people tell themselves they don't sin quite as much as those worldly folks and that makes everything A-okay.

But you see friend, that was the whole problem of the Law. By nature, humans cannot stop sinning and that is a problem which God fixed. The Law was holy, righteous, and good but there was a problem - the human condition. By definition, humans are flesh and the flesh is hostile to God and His will, and His commands, His Law. The flesh only wants to SIN and there was absolutely no provision in the Law to cure them of this problem. The Law only had a provision to clean up the mess - sacrifices for sins over and over. And because of this problem, people kept right on sinning, and because they kept right on sinning, they needed to keep on sacrificing over and over and over and over again.

The solution for this problem would need to come apart from the Law. God provided a cure for this human condition, that is, people sinning over and over and over because they are the flesh of sin which just can't help it. Those who have God's cure no longer continue in sin like those under the Law because God provided freedom from the cause of this problem. And these people walk in righteousness, the righteousness of God.

The Law couldn't help stop humans from sinning because there was no provision in the Law to cure their own human condition which led to their continuing in sin. As such, the Law then only served to condemn them as sinners. But something else did cure this problem. And those with the cure, are free from that condition which caused them to sin over and over. They don't have that problem anymore because they have died to the problem, something a Jew could not do under the Law.

Learn this and you might have a chance at understanding Paul.

When I compare what Paul said of himself with what Jesus said of himself that we should be the same image of God, holy, pure and without sin, I see descrepencies, especially when he speaks of himself being a sinner. That is not of Christ at all. And he even stated that he used witchcraft, trickery, to get people to follow him in his ways for sin. I dont remember Jesus having to use such tactics, do you?

Paul talked a good talk and made it easy for people to say they are of Christ but can still be the sinner which is impossible. 1 John 3:9.

How many do you know who are perfect even as God is perfect as Jesus taught and without sin that come with Gods anointing be in you as Jesus was anointed of God, which is Christ in man, Gods anointing in man and either one is anointed of Gods Christ, or one is not and a sinner instead.

The term Christ was invented by Paul at Antioch, before that in the old text Gods anointed ones were referred to as Saints. Today we are referred to as Christs.

Without sin didnt start with Jesus, without sin started with Adam in Gen 3:22. He became like God to know this difference from the laws of Eden for doe's, and do nots, and ate of Gods Spiritual knowledge, gained Gods knowledge by His Spirit and became like God to know this difference.

Jesus did the very same thing in Matt 3;16.

Most are Pauline as a sinner instead of Gods anointed ones and without sin.

 

[Josheb]

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

But you know, right?


Really, really, really bad way to start a conversation. Disparaging and marginalizing everyone and elevating yourself is always and everywhere bad form. And in this particular topic evidence you don't have a clue.

Ask the mods to delete the thread and start over with an opening post that doesn't place yourself above others.

 

[Josheb]

................The Law couldn't help stop humans from sinning because there was no provision in the Law to cure their own human condition which led to their continuing in sin..............

I can provide NUMEROUS examples of "pew sitters and academics" who comprehend this.


Start over before this thread gets too far. Be more circumspect, because right now you look stupid, ignorant, and arrogant. Had the measure of others been kept out of the op it would be fine and excellent, worthy of discussion, but that's undone by insinuating all others lack comprehension and you know what they don't.

Very bad form.

 

[Gary Mac]

I can provide NUMEROUS examples of "pew sitters and academics" who comprehend this.


Start over before this thread gets too far. Be more circumspect, because right now you look stupid, ignorant, and arrogant. Had the measure of others been kept out of the op it would be fine and excellent, worthy of discussion, but that's undone by insinuating all others lack comprehension and you know what they don't.

Very bad form.

Perhaps it isn't he who looks stupid, ignorant, and arrogant?

 

[Josheb]

Perhaps it isn't he who looks stupid, ignorant, and arrogant?

Perhaps you troll.

You do understand this op implies you and I don't know and understand scripture, yes? If you agree with the op's insinuation, then your post is self-referential. I'm completely okay with you acknowledging you are confused concerning Paul and the Law, but you don't get to speak for others any more than does Our Lord's God (curiously self-aggrandizing handle).

Marginalizing everyone else and elevating oneself is always bad practice, and usually indicative of hubris. Factually speaking, the statement is just wrong. There are plenty of pew-sitters and academics who correctly understand Paul's commentary on the Law. the op makes a factually incorrect statement and uses that falsehood to marginalize others. The only correct reply to that is to point out the wrongdoing and ask that it be corrected, giving the wrongdoer the opportunity to self-correct and make amends. People who can do that will do that. Those who can't, won't.

Your reply is non-sequitur.



Now, if you have anything op-relevant to say I might give it consideration but probably not for reasons already stated.

 

[DaGeo]

When I compare what Paul said of himself with what Jesus said of himself that we should be the same image of God, holy, pure and without sin, I see descrepencies, especially when he speaks of himself being a sinner. That is not of Christ at all. And he even stated that he used witchcraft, trickery, to get people to follow him in his ways for sin. I dont remember Jesus having to use such tactics, do you?

Paul talked a good talk and made it easy for people to say they are of Christ but can still be the sinner which is impossible. 1 John 3:9.

How many do you know who are perfect even as God is perfect as Jesus taught and without sin that come with Gods anointing be in you as Jesus was anointed of God, which is Christ in man, Gods anointing in man and either one is anointed of Gods Christ, or one is not and a sinner instead.

The term Christ was invented by Paul at Antioch, before that in the old text Gods anointed ones were referred to as Saints. Today we are referred to as Christs.

Without sin didnt start with Jesus, without sin started with Adam in Gen 3:22. He became like God to know this difference from the laws of Eden for doe's, and do nots, and ate of Gods Spiritual knowledge, gained Gods knowledge by His Spirit and became like God to know this difference.

Jesus did the very same thing in Matt 3;16.

Most are Pauline as a sinner instead of Gods anointed ones and without sin.

Gary, check out what Peter says about people like you who distort Paul’s words.

2 Peter 3:16

He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Gary Mac]

Perhaps you troll.

You do understand this op implies you and I don't know and understand scripture, yes? If you agree with the op's insinuation, then your post is self-referential. I'm completely okay with you acknowledging you are confused concerning Paul and the Law, but you don't get to speak for others any more than does Our Lord's God (curiously self-aggrandizing handle).

Marginalizing everyone else and elevating oneself is always bad practice,

For sure and nearly every one of you guys elevate yourself above the God of Jesus and dictate to your gods what you would have them be instead of being like Him as He demands of you if you are to be in the Father fit all.

and usually indicative of hubris.

Na just confident in the God of Jesus and myself. Asa confident in the Father as Jesus was for sure!

Factually speaking, the statement is just wrong. There are plenty of pew-sitters and academics who correctly understand Paul's commentary on the Law. the op makes a factually incorrect statement and uses that falsehood to marginalize others. The only correct reply to that is to point out the wrongdoing and ask that it be corrected, giving the wrongdoer the opportunity to self-correct and make amends. People who can do that will do that. Those who can't, won't.

Oh they know Pauls ways as a sinner way more than they ever know Jesus way to be without sin as comes with the Christ.

Your reply is non-sequitur.

As in?

Now, if you have anything op-relevant to say I might give it consideration but probably not for reasons already stated.

Im under the impression this is an open forum and not a private one!

All I did was reply to a derogative remark that you made of another, and yours was a typical loving christian response wasn't it. In your reply here is very hypocritical. You are doing the very thing you are charging me of.

 

[Gary Mac]

Gary, check out what Peter says about people like you who distort Paul’s words.

​

2 Peter 3:16

​

He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Oh' this forum is full of these who are unlearned and only has a belief about a god who never has met Him face to Face.

I know, I know, no man has seen God right? . That is because He is not flesh and bone just as Jesus said, He is a Spirit and if you ever do see Him as He is Spirit, ye shall be like Him. 1 John 3. You just need to follow the ways of Jesus and be born of God instead of making your god obey your beliefs about one.

 

[DaGeo]

Oh' this forum is full of these who are unlearned and only has a belief about a god who never has met Him face to Face.

I know, I know, no man has seen God right? . That is because He is not flesh and bone just as Jesus said, He is a Spirit and if you ever do see Him as He is Spirit, ye shall be like Him. 1 John 3. You just need to follow the ways of Jesus and be born of God instead of making your god obey your beliefs about one.

Gary, you’re trying to convince me of your false theories but it’s obvious you have yet to convince yourself. Maybe you need to go deeper into the darkness ??

 

[Gary Mac]

Gary, you’re trying to convince me of your false theories but it’s obvious you have yet to convince yourself. Maybe you need to go deeper into the darkness ??

Nope Im not trying to convince you of anything, Im trying to lead you to the same place in the father where Jesus was in the Father.

As far as darkness. I prefer His light, the mind of Christ to walk as He walks walks in His same light that you deem as darkness.

You only wade the shallow beach and ignore the depths of a very vast and deep ocean. And listening to your rants, you are wearing waders not to get wet even in the shallow elementary things of God and Jesus.

 

[DaGeo]

Nope Im not trying to convince you of anything, Im trying to lead you to the same place in the father where Jesus was in the Father.

As far as darkness. I prefer His light, the mind of Christ to walk as He walks walks in His same light that you deem as darkness.

You only wade the shallow beach and ignore the depths of a very vast and deep ocean. And listening to your rants, you are wearing waders not to get wet even in the shallow elementary things of God and Jesus.

I know you’re not trying to convince me of anything.
Like I say, you’re trying only to convince yourself. But for some reason yourself doesn’t believe you

 

[Howie]

Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3

There is hardly a soul left on the planet who comprehends what Paul is talking about, pew-sitters and academics alike.

And the REASON is because they tell themselves that believers "just can't stop sinning" just like everyone else in the world can't stop sinning. So these self deceived people tell themselves they don't sin quite as much as those worldly folks and that makes everything A-okay.

But you see friend, that was the whole problem of the Law. By nature, humans cannot stop sinning and that is a problem which God fixed. The Law was holy, righteous, and good but there was a problem - the human condition. By definition, humans are flesh and the flesh is hostile to God and His will, and His commands, His Law. The flesh only wants to SIN and there was absolutely no provision in the Law to cure them of this problem. The Law only had a provision to clean up the mess - sacrifices for sins over and over. And because of this problem, people kept right on sinning, and because they kept right on sinning, they needed to keep on sacrificing over and over and over and over again.

The solution for this problem would need to come apart from the Law. God provided a cure for this human condition, that is, people sinning over and over and over because they are the flesh of sin which just can't help it. Those who have God's cure no longer continue in sin like those under the Law because God provided freedom from the cause of this problem. And these people walk in righteousness, the righteousness of God.

The Law couldn't help stop humans from sinning because there was no provision in the Law to cure their own human condition which led to their continuing in sin. As such, the Law then only served to condemn them as sinners. But something else did cure this problem. And those with the cure, are free from that condition which caused them to sin over and over. They don't have that problem anymore because they have died to the problem, something a Jew could not do under the Law.

Learn this and you might have a chance at understanding Paul.

1 Jn 1:8 ... If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us ... ?