The Redemption and LDS theology

[dberrie2020]

Bonnie said:

It is faith in what JESUS Did for us on the cross that saves us--isn't it?

It's what all of mankind needs to be saved--but faith, nor the Atonement--- didn't save anyone in and by itself. If that were so--grace wouldn't be needed, or, all of mankind would be saved, as the Atonement was a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Bonnie--there's a difference between providing the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and the actual reception of eternal life. God opened the door of eternal life to all men--as an opportunity. Only those who obey God receive it:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I liken it to a college--the opportunity to be educated is a free gift--to gain the diploma--one has to meet the criteria of the college.

That's the way Redemption works. The Redeemer pays the debt of the prisoner to release him from bonds--but the redeemed has to meet the conditions of the Redeemer--or he returns to prison.

Jesus's Atonement and resurrection conquered death and hell for all men--as it relates to the Fall, as all were condemned due to the Fall.

We are now judged in accordance with our own choices--and not Adam's--or, meeting the Redeemer's conditions:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So--are those who attain unto life--as a result of their works--those who had faith? Or--are you claiming it's a faith without works which saves?

John 5:28-29 is anathema to faith alone theology.

Exactly what one will find being taught in the LDS church.

 

[Theo1689]

It's what all of mankind needs to be saved--but faith, nor the Atonement--- didn't save anyone in and by itself. If that were so--grace wouldn't be needed, or, all of mankind would be saved, as the Atonement was a free gift to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Bonnie--there's a difference between providing the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and the actual reception of eternal life. God opened the door of eternal life to all men--as an opportunity. Only those who obey God receive it:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I liken it to a college--the opportunity to be educated is a free gift--to gain the diploma--one has to meet the criteria of the college.

That's the way Redemption works. The Redeemer pays the debt of the prisoner to release him from bonds--but the redeemed has to meet the conditions of the Redeemer--or he returns to prison.

Jesus's Atonement and resurrection conquered death and hell for all men--as it relates to the Fall, as all were condemned due to the Fall.

We are now judged in accordance with our own choices--and not Adam's--or, meeting the Redeemer's conditions:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So--are those who attain unto life--as a result of their works--those who had faith? Or--are you claiming it's a faith without works which saves?

John 5:28-29 is anathema to faith alone theology.

Exactly what one will find being taught in the LDS church.

Then why are you UNABLE to deal with the following passages?:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

 

[dberrie2020]

Then why are you UNABLE to deal with the following passages?:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

As I have already stated--when Paul used the term "works"--it usually was a reference to certain rituals found under the Mosaic Law:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And, as to eternal life being an opportunity to all men--Paul didn't believe it had to do with anything mankind did.

Paul did believe only those who kept His commandments would inherit the kingdom of God:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Theo1689]

As I have already stated--when Paul used the term "works"--it usually was a reference to certain rituals found under the Mosaic Law:

<sigh>

And as I ALREADY RESPONDED to you, that is a FALSE claim by you that you have NOT substantiated.

Once again, we see that when a Mormon is dragged off script, he has no idea how to respond, so he simply repeats himself, ten million times.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

That doesn't refer to the word, "works", so it does NOT define how Paul uses the word, "works".

 

[dberrie2020]

That doesn't refer to the word, "works", so it does NOT define how Paul uses the word, "works".

Are you claiming that circumcision or keeping the commandments--isn't "works"?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Theo1689]

Are you claiming that circumcision or keeping the commandments--isn't "works"?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

<sigh>

No, I'm claiming that Paul's use of "works" is not LIMITED to the Mosaic Law.

When Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law, he refers to either "the Law", or "the Commandments".
So if he doesn't use either of those phrases, you cannot simply and self-servingly ASSUME that his comment about "works" is referring to "the Law".

This fallacy of "begging the question", or "assuming the consequent" seems to be your favourite logical fallacy to employ.

 

[dberrie2020]

No, I'm claiming that Paul's use of "works" is not LIMITED to the Mosaic Law.

When Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law, he refers to either "the Law", or "the Commandments".
So if he doesn't use either of those phrases, you cannot simply and self-servingly ASSUME that his comment about "works" is referring to "the Law".

The phrase "works of the law" was a common phrase Paul used---and was attached to the Mosaic Law:

Romans 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Again--Paul differentiated the "works of the Law" from obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Theo1689]

The phrase "works of the law" was a common phrase Paul used---and was attached to the Mosaic Law:

But he DIDN'T use it in Eph. 2:8-9...
And he DIDN'T use it in 2 Tim. 1:9...
And he DIDN'T use it in Tit. 3:5...
And he DIDN'T use it in Rom. 4:4-6...
And he DIDN'T use it in Rom. 11:5-6...

So he WASN'T talking about "the law" in those passages.

 

[Bonnie]

But he DIDN'T use it in Eph. 2:8-9...
And he DIDN'T use it in 2 Tim. 1:9...
And he DIDN'T use it in Tit. 3:5...
And he DIDN'T use it in Rom. 4:4-6...
And he DIDN'T use it in Rom. 11:5-6...

So he WASN'T talking about "the law" in those passages.

No, Paul was not, as anyone can read, who isn't reading through Mormon-colored glasses, but actually letting Scripture speak for itself as if it has something to say to us, instead of trying to twist it into a theological pretzel to try to get it to conform to one's heretical beliefs.

 

[Bonnie]

Then why are you UNABLE to deal with the following passages?:

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

Righto! Especially note the 2 Timothy and Titus verses:

2 Timothy 1:9​

King James Version​

​

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...

OUR works would not be "works of the Law" would they?

Titus 3:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

"Works of righteousness" would be good deeds, would they not? But Paul DOES expect those who bear the Name of Christ to do good deeds:

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

WHY should we do good works? To help save ourselves? Nope. But because they are "good and profitable unto men." In other words, because they help others. That is part of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[dberrie2020]

But he DIDN'T use it in Eph. 2:8-9...
And he DIDN'T use it in 2 Tim. 1:9...
And he DIDN'T use it in Tit. 3:5...
And he DIDN'T use it in Rom. 4:4-6...
And he DIDN'T use it in Rom. 11:5-6...

So he WASN'T talking about "the law" in those passages.

No one has made the claim Paul was referring to the Mosaic Law in every instance--only that (1) Paul differentiated between certain rituals of the Mosaic Law--and obedience to the gospel--and (2) Paul often was referring to the rituals under the Mosaic Law when referring to works, and that it was God's grace which brought man back to eternal life--not their obedience to God.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

In no place did Paul disassociate keeping the commandments with His grace unto eternal life:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW--although eternal life had it's origins in God's grace alone--He only extends that grace to those who obey His commandments.

Now--how do you collate your theology with the posted scriptures?

 

[Theo1689]

No one has made the claim Paul was referring to the Mosaic Law in every instance--only that (1) Paul differentiated between certain rituals of the Mosaic Law--and obedience to the gospel--and (2) Paul often was referring to the rituals under the Mosaic Law when referring to works, and that it was God's grace which brought man back to eternal life--not their obedience to God.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

But he DIDN'T speak of "law" or "commandments" in any of these passages (which you keep RUNNING AWAY from):


Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

Now--how do you collate your theology with the posted scriptures?

Since I'm not a Mormon, that question is inappropriate for this forum.

 

[dberrie2020]

Righto! Especially note the 2 Timothy and Titus verses:
OUR works would not be "works of the Law" would they?

"Works of righteousness" would be good deeds, would they not? But Paul DOES expect those who bear the Name of Christ to do good deeds:

WHY should we do good works? To help save ourselves? Nope. But because they are "good and profitable unto men." In other words, because they help others. That is part of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Bonnie--I started a new thread where you can come and bombard the LDS with all the verses you and Theo claim no one has answered.

I'll be there to answer to those verses--every one of them.

 

[dberrie2020]

Since I'm not a Mormon, that question is inappropriate for this forum.

If you aren't willing to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to your position--then you don't have any right to challenge the LDS position, IMO. In fact--there is no basis for your complaint, other than you want to expend some prejudice.

BTW--I've started a new thread where you can come--with all your scriptures you claim the LDS don't address--and shotgun me with the questions--I'll be there to answer your questions about those scriptures--if you are willing to explain to us what your position is in disagreeing with the LDS, and the scriptures.

 

[Theo1689]

If you aren't willing to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to your position--then you don't have any right to challenge the LDS position, IMO.

I don't care about your "IMO".

Does a Muslim have to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to the "faith alone" position?
Does a Jew have to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to the "faith alone" position?
Does an atheist have to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to the "faith alone" position?

Of course not.

And so, neither do I.

One can discuss (or condemn) Mormonism on its own merits (or lack thereof) without needed to compare it to anything else.

You're simply looking for an excuse to attack another religion, to try to avoid defending the bankrupt Mormonism.

 

[dberrie2020]

I don't care about your "IMO".

Does a Muslim have to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to the "faith alone" position?
Does a Jew have to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to the "faith alone" position?
Does an atheist have to explain how the LDS are wrong, according to the "faith alone" position?

I would expect any of them to explain what their position was--if they were to challenge my own. That's just common courtesy, IMO.

It just so happens your position is faith alone--which I believe is unBiblical.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

How can someone who attempts to tell me how wrong my position is, do so in an effective way--when their position is aberrant to the same standard they claim they are judging me by?