The Reformation

[dberrie2020]

When His righteousness is credited to is by grace THROUGH faith in HIM.

Which the Lutherans promptly edit to mean--through a faith excluding all works....

So--how does that fit the Biblical testimony?

Matthew 16:27--King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works

 

[dberrie2020]

You would agree with the RCC no surprise there.

Act 16:30 - And brought them out,and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 - And they said, Believeon the Lord Jesus Christ, and thoushalt be saved, and thy house.
www.blueletter.com

You say that as if belief in Christ excludes all works:

Acts 16:25-33---King James Version
25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

I don't find them as believers until after they were baptized.

 

[Bonnie]

I do not idolize statues.... just one of many misconceptions you have shown over the past few weeks.

Your church idolizes statues:

How is this not venerating a statue (though it falls of its podium)?

 

[Bonnie]

....and this:

How is this not venerating a statue?

 

[Bonnie]

petition all the saints

Why? Isn't Jesus good enough to pray to, for help, succor--and salvation?

"Come unto ME all you who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."

"Whatever you ask ME in MY Name, that I will do."

Didn't Jesus utter these words? If so, where did He say anything like "come unto My mother, all you who labor and are heavy laden and she will give you rest" or "Whatever you ask My mother in My Name, that I will do..."?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Why? Isn't Jesus good enough to pray to, for help, succor--and salvation?

1 Tim 2:1-4 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11

Pray for others [Mt 5:44]

 

[Arch Stanton]

How is this not venerating

venerate - give great respect or reverence [not worship]

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Great verses!

You say that as if belief in Christ excludes all works:

Acts 16:25-33---King James Version
25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

I don't find them as believers until after they were baptized.

Do you think unbelievers would have been baptized ?

 

[dberrie2020]

Do you think unbelievers would have been baptized ?

I think the term "believers" was usually associated with those who followed Christ:

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

So--when you use the terms "believers", "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

 

[Leatherneck0311]

I think the term "believers" was usually associated with those who followed Christ:

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

So--when you use the terms "believers", "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Works is an evidence of faith

I think the term "believers" was usually associated with those who followed Christ:

Acts 2:38-42--King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

So--when you use the terms "believers", "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Eph 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 - Not of works, lest any manshould boast.

 

[BJ Bear]

that reminds me of a few verses.... Acts 8:30-31 🤔

Great passage, but it is even greater that the Lord's advent had come. Otherwise, the evangelist and the rest of the gang wouldn't have had the once for all definitive answer to give the Eunuch and the rest of the world.

A blessed Advent to you!

 

[BJ Bear]

That seems to be the Lutheran claim. Here is the reality:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

To use your words, "here is the reality," the subject is Christ so the predicate is about Christ. Therefore, Christ being made perfect, He became the cause/causer/author of eternal salvation.

I get that you are working with the KJV so check out the word being translated into English as cause/author.

Adding the prepositional phrase to the complete sentence only tells us of the relationship of, "them," the pronoun, to Christ, the cause of eternal salvation. The prepositional phrase doesn't replace, change or modify Christ as the cause of eternal salvation.

Christ being made perfect, He became the cause/causer/author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

It's about Christ and them which obey Him--and what goes to them which obey Him--eternal salvation.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

As explained above, Christ is the cause of eternal salvation. You are misreading the passage.

All passages which defy faith alone theology is considered "out of context"--by those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures.

No, passages cited out of context, removed from their context, are out of context.

 

[BJ Bear]

I agree with that. But the scriptural testimony is He extends what He caused--- to them which obey Him--anathema still to faith alone theology.

That commentary doesn't accurately reflect the off topic passage you cited, Hebrews 5:9.

 

[BJ Bear]

So--is this Christian revelation--or the imaginings of sinful men?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Scripture in the God given perfect immediate context in which it was given excludes the imaginings of sinful men.

 

[BJ Bear]

There is but one mention of "faith alone" found in the entire Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

There is only one literalistic mention of not by faith alone in another context.

People who read Scripture ignoring the God given perfect immediate context forfeit the clear witness of Scripture and wallow in error.

 

[BJ Bear]

KJV: Heb 5:9 - And being made perfect,he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; I believe author and cause mean the same thing.

Yes they do. Unfortunately, some people interested in using Scripture rather than learning from it don't.

 

[dberrie2020]

There is only one literalistic mention of not by faith alone in another context.

People who read Scripture ignoring the God given perfect immediate context forfeit the clear witness of Scripture and wallow in error.

What do you consider as imperfect, "in error"--or out of context about the plain testimony of the Biblical scriptures?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That it violates faith alone theology isn't reason to assume it's false.

 

[dberrie2020]

Scripture in the God given perfect immediate context in which it was given excludes the imaginings of sinful men.

So--what do you consider as the " imaginings of sinful men"--about the posted scripture?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Again--just so it violates faith alone theology does not mean it is the " imaginings of sinful men"--or out of context. It's plain and simple to understand, even if it does grind faith alone theology to powder.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

So--what do you consider as the " imaginings of sinful men"--about the posted scripture?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Again--just so it violates faith alone theology does not mean it is the " imaginings of sinful men"--or out of context. It's plain and simple to understand, even if it does grind faith alone theology to powder.

So you do n’t believe this scripture ?

Eph 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 - Not of works, lest any manshould boast. If you could earn your salvation why do you need Jesus ?

 

[dberrie2020]

So you do n’t believe this scripture ?

Eph 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 - Not of works, lest any manshould boast. If you could earn your salvation why do you need Jesus ?

Yes--it states one is saved by grace--not by works. No one has claimed otherwise.

What it does not state is--works are excluded in who receives God's grace.

So--the question remains--if we are saved by God's grace--who does God give His grace unto life?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?