The Reformation

[Bonnie]

1 Tim 2:1-4 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11

Pray for others [Mt 5:44]

Please read more carefully....Paul wrote prayers, etc. be offered FOR everyone, not TO everyone. There is a vast difference between the two.

Of course we are to pray FOR others. No one here disputes that. That is entirely biblical. But that is NOT the same thing as praying TO OTHERS--is it? Which is what Catholics do when they pray to mere human beings dead in the Lord, now in heaven. That is NOT biblical at all.

 

[Bonnie]

There is only one literalistic mention of not by faith alone in another context.

People who read Scripture ignoring the God given perfect immediate context forfeit the clear witness of Scripture and wallow in error.

Yep, quoting out of context is what those in works righteous churches and cults MUST do, to back up their beliefs.

a gentleman on another board, Theo1689, who is a Reformed Baptist, wrote this to our Mormon friend, on the old boards. I archived it. I cannot improve on it. I don't remember if i posted this already on here; if so, I will need to delete this, as it would be considered spam:

So for the millionth time, let's address your proof-text where you take an interpretation that CONTRADICTS the rest of the Bible:


James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

As Jeff Durbin likes to point out, this passage is NOT about "faith vs. works". This passage is about "living faith" vs. "dead faith".

Here he gives and example of someone who CLAIMS to have faith. That faith may be true, or it may be false. The fact that he "does not have works" shows that the faith is false. He then says, "can THAT faith save him" (the word "that" which is found in the ESV is justified, because the word "faith" is articulated, specifying a particular kind of faith, since it has the definite article, referring back to the previous mention of "faith".

"Can that faith save him?" is a rhetorical question, and the obvious answer is "no, it can't". But it's not because he has a true "faith", but simply hasn't added "works" to it. It is because he has a "dead faith" (v.17), instead of a "living" faith.

15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

If one truly has faith, they will not simply give "well-wishing". They will actually DO something to help the needy. True faith WORKS.

In fact, I believe John MacArthur has written a book called, "Faith Works", which you would do well to read. For that matter, you would do well to read the two chapters on "Faith" in C.S. Lewis' famous work, "Mere Christianity".

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

"I will show you my faith BY my works".

Works are not simply something you "add" to your faith, they are something that DEMONSTRATES the faith you already have. They are the FRUITS of a living faith, the EVIDENCE of a living faith, the JUSTIFICATION of a proclamation of faith.

You can tell if someone has faith BY their works.
If someone claims to have faith, but has no works, they don't have "faith", and their claim is false. If they had a true faith, a living faith, that faith would RESULT in good works.

Works aren't something you "add" to faith.
Works are something that FLOWS from a true, living faith.

But works aren't "required" for salvation (which is "not by works", Eph. 2:9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.), they are something that provide EVIDENCE for faith, which faith saves.

19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Now James gets into the double meaning of "pistis". It can mean "faith" or "trust", or it can simply mean, "acknowledge something as true", which is how the demons believe. A faith or trust WILL result in good works (as explained above).

20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The term "justified" can sometimes mean "saved" in Biblical context, but it can also men "vindicated". And this is how it is being here. James began this narrative with someone who simply CLAIMED to have faith, but did not have works. And James explained how works DEMONSTRATE a true faith ("I will SHOW you my faith BY my works"). So when we see works, they JUSTIFY the man's claim to having faith.

So we go back to the "not by works" passages (Eph. 2:8-9, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5, Rom. 4:1-6, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.) which you will not touch with a ten-foot pole.

No it was on another thread, so it should be all right. But here is that thread:

The confession heard 'round the world!

Today to the very date is the 500th anniversary of Luther's "Here I stand!" confession of faith before the Diet of Worms, in Germany. Luther could NOT recant what he had found in Scripture, which the RCC had buried under centuries of man-made doctrines, like Indulgences and Purgatory. He said...

forums.carm.org

A Canadian Lutheran, many years ago on here, wrote that salvation isn't by faith AND works, but faith THAT works. I.E. a living faith. I can tell the difference. I doubt works righteous folks can.

 

[dberrie2020]

Yep, quoting out of context is what those in works righteous churches and cults MUST do, to back up their beliefs.

The question remains--why do the Lutherans claim "works righteous"--whenever scriptures are quoted which defy their theology?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

No it was on another thread, so it should be all right. But here is that thread:

The confession heard 'round the world!

Today to the very date is the 500th anniversary of Luther's "Here I stand!" confession of faith before the Diet of Worms, in Germany. Luther could NOT recant what he had found in Scripture, which the RCC had buried under centuries of man-made doctrines, like Indulgences and Purgatory. He said...

forums.carm.org

A Canadian Lutheran, many years ago on here, wrote that salvation isn't by faith AND works, but faith THAT works. I.E. a living faith.

Faith alone theology demands that a one receives eternal life--excluding works from faith.

IOW--what the Lutherans term "living faith"--or, a "faith that works", when referring to obtaining eternal life--is a faith without works.

Exactly what the Biblical text refers to as a faith which is dead:

James 2:26---King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A faith without works may be "living faith" to a Lutheran--but it was heresy to the Biblical NT writers.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Please read more carefully....Paul wrote prayers, etc. be offered FOR everyone, not TO everyone. There is a vast difference between the two.

Of course we are to pray FOR others. No one here disputes that. That is entirely biblical. But that is NOT the same thing as praying TO OTHERS--is it? Which is what Catholics do when they pray to mere human beings dead in the Lord, now in heaven. That is NOT biblical at all.

You forget the great cloud of witnesses.

 

[dberrie2020]

A Canadian Lutheran, many years ago on here, wrote that salvation isn't by faith AND works, but faith THAT works. I.E. a living faith

IOW--a "faith that works"--"a living faith"--is a faith without works?

Bonnie--the Lutheran theology seems to vary quite significantly with the Biblical testimony:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.